Tian Yue wrote:
> On Jul 25, 6:27 am, "Rich" <deadm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Ken wrote:
>>> Etznab wrote:
>>>> On Jul 24, 7:19 pm, "Ken" <K...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>> Is the Mahanta contained within the body of Harold? Is
>>>>> the Living ECK Master?
>>
>>>>> Nope.
>>
>>>> Ken,
>>
>>>> I suppose that depends on who you ask.
>>>> In my experience there are those who see
>>>> Harold as God. Not all have done this. But
>>>> "some of us have". In my opinion, some of
>>>> the members in Eckankar have made the
>>>> Living Eck Master into a God and equated
>>>> Harold Klemp with both "Living Eck Master"
>>>> & "Mahanta".
>>
>>>> A similiar topic of dispute sent tremors
>>>> through the Catholic Church at one time I
>>>> believe. The topic of the Trinity. Some felt
>>>> that Jesus was equivalent to all three, but
>>>> others did not. That is, all three elements
>>>> of the Trinity.
>>
>>>> Eckankar dogma records its own form
>>>> of Trinity. However, I have seen it spelled
>>>> out in a number of different ways. And if
>>>> you look at the descriptions over time, it
>>>> seems to get even more uncertain. IMO.
>>
>>>> Etznab
>>
>>> I have to respectfully disagree. Both the Mahanta
>>> consciousness and the position of Living ECK Master
>>> transcends the individual who is the current leader of
>>> Eckankar. Both Paul and Harold have made that clear.
>>
>> Here's just a few quotes for those who may have, or still
>> cling to less reasonable beliefs.
>>
>> "I do not claim I am God, or something like this. It's
>> impossible for any human being to become God. It's almost
>> ridiculous to think of it but some
>> of the Eastern paths say, 'Study with us, and you shall
>> become one with God.'"
>>
>> "Our position is different. Our aim is to become one with
>> the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is the Light and
>> Sound of God."
>>
>> "We can become one with the Light and Sound, we can become
>> one with the Holy Spirit, but not one with God."
>>
>> "God, or SUGMAD, is the creator. But creation came about
>> through the Voice of God, or the Word which is the Holy
>> Spirit. And we can become one with
>> the Holy Spirit."
>>
>> "I want to make this distinction clear for you."
>>
>> - Harold Klemp HOW THE INNER MASTER WORKS pg. 242:
>>
>> "The way is neither to the right, nor the left, nor is it
>> through the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master."
>> - Paul Twitchell “The Far Country” chapter 2
>>
>> "Paradoxical as it might seem, my point in bringing out all
>> of this has been to strengthen your faith in the Mahanta --
>> but not at the expense of making a god out of the Mahanta's
>> vehicle, which is the Living ECK Master. It's a price we
>> cannot afford to pay. As soon as we set someone above us,
>> in potential or in fact, we have committed a crime against
>> ourselves; We have limited the op****tunity for our own
>> unfoldment."
>>
>> - Harold Klemp
>>
>> Even if you reach the stature of an ECK Master, you will
>> not have the full understanding of the laws of ECK because
>> the laws of ECK are incredibly immense. The Spiritual
>> Travelers are always moving out into new areas exploring
>> the unknown regions. Why? Because they want to know what
>> the laws of ECK are beyond their own state of
>> consciousness.
>>
>> - Harold Klemp
>> Wisdom of the Heart Book 2 chapter 9
>>
>> "The purpose of life is to give Soul an education so that
>> It can become a Co-worker with God. Whether we like it or
>> not - resist, cry, scream, shout, throw a tantrum like a
>> child - someday we are going to be one of the exalted ones,
>> a master in our own right."
>>
>> - Harold Klemp
>> The Book of ECK Parables, Volume One
>>
>> No matter what language one speaks, he does not have to go
>> any special place to get in touch with the ECK, nor wait
>> for a special time or a special person; he can make contact
>> with the ECK now. It matters not what religion he is
>> brought up in, he can connect with the ECK here and now.
>>
>> - Paul Twitchell -- Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad book 2 p. 102
>>
>> "Not I, whom you see here in the earthly form," replied
>> Rebazar, smiling broadly, "but the true Master who is not
>> the body but the Divine ECK Power functioning through the
>> body and using it to teach thee and guide thee in the
>> highest possible duty of God's own sake.
>>
>> - Paul Twitchell STRANGER BY THE RIVER Page 57:
>>
>> "Therefore, I say again, that the vehicle of ECK might not
>> be a guru, teacher, master, or even a person. It can be
>> something beyond all these. It can be thy own self, or the
>> Voice of God, and mayhaps even Nature herself who teaches
>> thee."
>>
>> - Paul Twitchell STRANGER BY THE RIVER Page 174
>>
>> "Each aspirant for the ECKshar enlightenment must be a law
>> unto himself. He himself, not the Living ECK Master, must
>> tread the path of ECK. One must
>> eat the food for oneself and, as it's taught by the
>> Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, each upon the path must be
>> his own Light and Sound, his own refuge. The realization of
>> God is not to realize by the proxy of an ECK Master, but by
>> the ECKist himself."
>>
>> - Paul Twitchell -- Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad book 2 p. 96
>>
>> These and more were my understanding. It was clear through
>> my experiences that the inner aspect was where the
>> spiritual power resided, and not in the man.
>>
>> I understand how some apostates tout other quotes. At that
>> early time of their spiritual growth, that is what they
>> needed. The quotes resonated with them and therefore they
>> embraced the images as truth. That they now reject the
>> concepts shows they have grown. That some still cling to
>> their mis-takes indicates to me that they are living in the
>> past and have yet to gain a bigger picture of the times
>> they were written in, nor the underlying spiritual context.
>>
>> As is human nature some will still begin Eckankar
>> wor****ping images, just like some have idealist views of
>> celebrities in all fields today. Yet there is less chance
>> of that now, because Harold has made it perfectly clear on
>> the web that Paul was not a God.
>>
>> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/index.html
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> "In 1964 and 1965, Paul Twitchell’s state of consciousness
>> was in fluctuation. At times he seemed very near the
>> Mahanta****p, which he was to receive on October 22, 1965.
>>
>> But he did drift back and forth in consciousness. There
>> were still signs of Paul’s failure to yet see and know the
>> fullness of the divine plan for Soul’s education.
>>
>> Paul, then, is a perfect example of the seesawing that Soul
>> goes through in Its aspirations for the Oneness of All
>> Being."
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> "It might be awkward for us to accept this frailty of
>> consciousness in Paul unless we acknowledge the principle
>> that he and all beings—even the Mahanta in training—undergo
>> marked changes in perception as their unfoldment
>> progresses."
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> "By and large, Paul wrote for the people of his times. This
>> was necessarily so because the Mahanta, the Living ECK
>> Master responds to the spiritual conditions that prevail
>> during his term of service to God. As the human race
>> expands in consciousness to even the smallest degree, it
>> calls for a like adjustment in the outer teachings of ECK.
>> Therefore, the written and spoken works of ECK are suited
>> exactly to the temper of the times in which they are
>> given."
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> "Paul Twitchell was a person who had to go through
>> experiences of all kinds so that he would be fit to become
>> the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master. To say he had a
>> checkered life is an understatement."
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> "Paul learned many things on his way to becoming the Living
>> ECK Master. He also broke some spiritual laws while he was
>> learning. (...)
>> He made the same foolish mistakes that most of us have
>> made, are making, and will make in the future. This is part
>> of the experience of Soul in these worlds. We have come
>> here to gain experience.
>>
>> There is a saying in business that if a person isn't making
>> mistakes, he isn't growing. It's pretty true in the
>> spiritual life too.
>>
>> The person who seems to live a very saintly life is
>> probably also living a dull life."
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> "We've been busy interviewing some of the people who knew
>> Paul personally. The purpose is to compile a living history
>> which will provide valuable information to historians of
>> the future. In a hundred years, people are going to be able
>> to say, "This was the foundation of Eckankar." It will
>> answer a lot of questions about how the ECKists of our time
>> thought and felt, how they got through all the different
>> changes which shook the very foundations of ECK—and who got
>> through it and who didn't.
>>
>> The one thing every single person remembered the most was
>> the great love that Paul had for others. It was described
>> as an overwhelming love, and it touched other people. He
>> showed kindness and consideration for even the smallest
>> concerns of others. (...)
>> One might think that the instant he had experienced God
>> Consciousness, he could have risen above the human
>> emotions. This is one of the popular myths that has been
>> put upon people by those who don't know any better. When
>> the God Consciousness comes in, it does not immediately
>> dissolve all the habits that have developed over a number
>> of years."
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> ` o
>>>
>> ~/|
>> _/ |\
>> / | \
>> -/ | \
>> _/____|___\_
>> Rich~~~~(__________/~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~
>
>
> This use of Eck Masters' "positive" statements to counter
> their own negative statements cracks me up because it's so
> transparent and easily explained and rebutted. It's kind of
> sad. I can understand a devoted Eckist wanting to counter
> the heinous statements of the Eck masters with some of their
> more positive statements, but all this really proves is the
> tendency to try to have it both ways. On one hand, these
> masters claim to have all these extraordinary abilities and
> powers (we all know what the writings state, and I can post
> dozens of grandiose statements by PT and Klemp) but on the
> other, whenever they fall into human frailties and even
> unethical behavior most people would find appalling, they
> turn around and excuse themselves by pointing out the
> paradox of being merely human, even as they continue
> presenting themselves as extremely advanced beings. This
> attempt to have it both ways is really a weak, common ploy,
> and is actually even more insidious and entrapping, because
> it provides the follower with a convenient, truth-avoiding
> rationalization for the mixed messages they're being given.
> It's so obvious that it's rather surprising people fall for
> this. But they're not stupid. They fall for it because they
> want to fall for it.
Maybe spiritual realization is not what you are making it out
to be. Perhaps it's exactly what Paul and Harold say it is.
It's just a possibility to consider.
--
Ken
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