dear Risto Karttunen
>
> "Sin" is the word
it means missing the mark in archery.
it used now to send others to hell.
when all it means is we have not lived up to our goals.
we have not met all our promises.
how did a term about archery in greek end up being such a life
threatening word for christians?
how do we get to sin being a death threat when all it says is we did
not do what we promised god we would do.
does that lead to hell?
really lead to hell?
> for this phenomenon we have discussed and which has
> much to do with me.
yet you do not talk about your sin.
you discuss it in generalities.
all christians seem more interested in other people's sins and talking
about other people's lives
than paying more attention to their own.
so we hear long lists of sins of others and nothing about the sins of
the authors of these threads.
christians need to keep their talk of sin to things about themselves.
as jesus asks.
> What negative arguments? I am not necessarily on any "side".
you seem on the opposite side of any discussion.
when someone says positive you remind them how bad it can be.....
that is living in the world and being part of the world.
see a world without polarity, without good and evil.
then see this world as what it is.
and you will notice we have a choice to participate in good and evil
or rise above it.
and most people find it too comforting to leave it behind.
> What isn't true:
only what you don't know.
> sin is a capability or it isn't inherently bad?
it isn't sin. breaking a promise may be a bad thing.
the motive for breaking a promise is im****tant.
for we all break out word on way or another.
it isn't a spiritual crime. as sin seems to be a spiritual crime
so christians can say they are sinless and everyone esle is a sinner.
it is a device to harm others and not admit to anything oneself.
get off of sin as a device to judge others.
us sin as a concept of find your own reality.
for when we see sin in others we are not helping them.
when we don't see our sin cause we are blinded by other's sins.
>
> > there is no patient zero for hiv.
> > there is no patient zero for sin.
> > there is no time when we could not have become who we are.
> > there is nothing wrong with wishful thinking.
>
> Yes, there is nothing wrong with wishful thinking, so...?
so where is yours?
> That was about God.
the god you know? or the god someone told you about?
that is question.
when we talk about god, talk about things we know
or have happened to us. otherwise people can't believe a thing we
say.
> It is not written in the Bible that He was proud,
> but I think He was, as any loving parent would have been.
come back to you............. it isn't about hypothetical
situations.
it is about each of us and our relation****p with god.
for when we study jesus life, we see the promise jesus made us that we
too can find the father.
we too can love and communicate with the father/mother/god. we don't
just need the poetry of religion
we can have the living myth.
>
>
>
> > > Every parent whose
> > > child does something unexpected, dangerous and extravagant is proud,
> > > but perhaps also worried, and the child may be reprimanded and
> > > punished, of course.
>
> > again, you go negative.
>
> How so?
it is a negative story about THE CHILDREN.
oh the children, think of the children....
in america this is always said by a phoney family values christians
politician.
who has a social agenda against women and gays.
we see this concept of 'oh the poor children' in politics all the time
only to read that these family values bullies, these guys are sleeping
around like banshees.
and dissing their own children while using the poor children concept
to win votes.
> > have you been or seen too much punishment in your life?
>
> Not too much, no.
then why is punishment so a big topic for you?
>
> > > I'd say evil is something which is immoral.
>
> > then evil is something you would not do.
>
> I wouldn't know. Perhaps St. Paul was right about this and Aristotle
> was wrong, for example.
you can wor****p anyone you want.
>
> > while evil you do not do may be good for some else?
>
> Give me an example, please.
>
> > we see chrsitians all the time denying others prescription rights.
>
> _Prescription_ rights?
yes, christians in america use their faith to deny people their rights
all the time.
we have christians that work in prescription centers just to cause
havoc on ill people they have an agenda against.
> Who are "we" and who are those Christians?
they are all over america.
> I am
> a Finn; you seem to be talking about something which is taking place
> in America.
then you wish to stop?
> > so the christian sees immorality where there is none.
> > the christian sees evil where there is none.
>
> I guess some Christians do.
then you can see calling things evil is more difficult than you
thought.
> > (...) and we have christians
> > today telling us how evil people are that are not evil, just not
> > interested in ba****ng gays like many christians are./
>
> Do some American Christians really say that it is evil not to be
> interested in ba****ng gays?
it is evil not to bash gays. fred phelps is famous for it.
tho many christians make money by selling videos of gay marches to
christians to help them hate homo***uals better.
> I am sorry if that really is the case; I
> am a Christian and I certainly do not say that.
so can you see where evil is relative?
a good christian can be a mean or loving in america.
> (I don't know English
> very well;
you are doing very well. as merlin does not believe in punctuation
you may have more trouble reading this than merlin has reading yours.
> shouldn't the first letters in "American" and "Christian"
> be capitals?).
when you hire a secretary to retype things for you yes.
> We are sinners, yes.
we are all lovers too.
>
> > jesus supposed death is being taken advantage by every christian that
> > says jesus died for memememememe.
>
> That "advantage" is not what Kant meant.
it maybe the reason for christianity.
> I am surprised to hear that. The Bible was not written in English.
there is much superstition around the bible in christianity.
and many americans only know english and own and english bible.
so it seems all christians are english in america.
until the mexicans came up from the south and have confused the
situation
for many christians.
>
> > it was a generic question about culture supresitition and racism in
> > european christianity, where a jewish carpenter is always played by a
> > southern italian.
>
> Always? In movies etc?
name a movie you have seen with an isreali jesus.
all euro movies about jesus have italians actors.
mel gibson used an italian and not a jew or middle eastern.
> And exactly where would the racism be, even if
> that was true?
the real jesus and the pretend jesus.
a racially similar jesus is more comforting.
and the racism in europe can be found in world war two
with the german occupation of europe and the chasing down of jews.
as jesus was really a handsome jewish carpenter no matter how pretty
an italian people try to make jesus.
>
> > > I am a Finn.
>
> > then do you allow god to be addressed in other language.
>
> What a strange question indeed. Of course I don't insist that all
> people in the world should use the word "Jumala" (the Finnish word for
> God).
thank you for telling us....... it feels like a gift to hear this.
the power of love and god come through this word for sure.
thank you.
Jumala =3D God.
there are so many names for god.
each of us has our own name for god too.
>
> > > Trivially I call a thing evil only if I consider it to be evil (to
me
> > > or to somebody else).
>
> > that isn't good enough.
>
> What do you mean?
it isn't your opinion that matter to anyone else.
it is what you personally do with what you know.
when we judge others we confuse them for our judgement of them.
we only need to see what help we can give someone, not how poorly they
run their lives.
we don't need to change people's lives, we can let them be who they
want and learn their lessons.
to label things good and evil and people as good and evil. allows the
weaker christians among us to pick on them and treat them as less for
the gossip about evil we say around other people.
>
> > where does your consciousness lie?
> > where do you put your faith in your soul?
> > where do you see your inner residing?
> > this isn't philosophical this is a real question,
> > it is where we place our love our soul or connection with god.
>
> Are you asking whether I consider my consciousness etc. to be
> spatially located or not?
sorta, where do you see your soul?
>
> > > At least I admit that there is much we don't know yet.
>
> > as you label the unknown to you as evil?
>
> I have said nothing like that.
you refered to judging others as evil above.
or deciding what was evil about someone.
when we know someone is a theif we deal with them as theif.
we don't have to call them evil or say they are going to hell.
they may be stealing to buy food for children.
> Of course I don't think that unknown
> logical, physical, historical etc. facts are _evil_.
yet you will imagine evil in others.
rather, see them in love, and leave it god to god to decide what to
do.
> Very few people turn to religion on the basis of deliberate ponderings
> upon consciousness,
what else is there?
explaining god can help us learn how to exist.
> I think. If a person really _turns_ to religion,
> the reasons seem to be in some deep psychological crisis, or there has
> been no single reason, in case that turn has taken place little by
> little.
you left god out.
can you imagine someone with no personal problems finding the living
father/mother/god?
can you imagine people that find their consciousness and realize they
can go deeper
and find the source behind the consciousness?
does it always have to be someone has problems?
merlin has met people with both reasons.
> Now you are preaching about something you don't really _know_, I dare
> say.
the second comming of jesus is our christhood awakening.
there is no promise jesus will return, jesus says he who sent me shall
come next time......
call it preaching. it is the state of being that consciousness can
claim.
see it from the other side.....
not just your human experience.
see it as a soul that has lived for a billion years and has a billion
more to spend finding the way.
> We can and do accomplish quite a lot, of course.
thank you.
> Your point being...?
even animals have souls, even animals can communicate.
even animals are animated with god. they got some meememememe in them
too.
>
> > there is a sense of the soul in the choices animals make.
> > from nesting to foraging. =A0it is survival beyond instinct.
>
> On what basis do you say that, survival _beyond_ instinct?
the design of the nest of a specific bird.
the choice animals make while hunting.
the pecking order at meals.
top dog gets the best food.
these are all learned habits.
not just instincts.
these are things that require making choices.
> "Sin" is usually said in the negative sense, of course.
it is very satisfying to see nativity in others it seems.
>
> > > We teach the fear of the difference between the Good and the Evil?
>
> > to unsuspecting children. =A0that grow up to think you can get
pregnant
> > from toilet seats.
>
> So that was what you meant by teaching _the fear of the difference_
> between the Good and the Evil, I see.
am sure you could explain it differently and better.
> > you tell us.......... =A0what age do christians in your country out
gay
> > children in their midst?
>
> Most Christians here don't do that at all.
many christians here go absolute crazy when any child acts gay as
children often do.
there was a murder of a child in school by another child because that
child was not masculine enough at nine years old
for the child with a gun.
that is how confusion ***uality identity is america rightnow.
>
> > outing children as gay happens all the time by christians in america.
>
> Are all Christians really doing that there, all the time?
pretty much, people will say, he has a shrill voice, he must be gay.
that child wants to go in the theatre must be gay........
identity politics is really dangerous in america.
jesus spoke what language?
the bible is written in what language?
did jesus speak the language your bible was edited in?
in love with the living loving gay jesus,
merlin
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