>Reply to article by: Midwinter <midwinter_m@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Date written: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:44:09 -0500
>MsgID:<Xns9A9AE7A91D99CCYPMNDEXHBCJOIU@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> I know, but that answer will backfire since we are right back to where
>> we started: why are there no Christians that want or will allow God to
>> change them?
>Well, that question requires first that we define the sort of change that
>we, as observers, would recognise. What sort of change are WE looking to
>see in Christians? Based on the original question, would we be looking
to
>see if God changed them into moral people?
>If that's the case, then your question here would surely require the
prior
>establishment of a premise that there are *no* moral Christians. Would
>that be a safe premise to begin with, do you think?
Nope.
>You originally
>mentioned the 'morally disgraceful past' of Christians - did you actually
>mean to include ALL Christians in that?
All the ones that are mentioned in history.
The reason for those answers is because, getting back to your first two
questions, the Bible defines what those new creatures would be like:
"It doesn't make any difference now whether we have been circumcised or
not.
What counts is whether we really have been changed into new and different
people" (Gal 6:15)
"When you came to Christ, he set you free from your evil desires, not by a
bodily operation of circumcision, but by a spiritual operation, the
baptism of
your souls" (Col 2:11)
"Those who have been born into God's family do not sin, because God's life
is in
them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they have been born of God"
(I John
3:9)
"Our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose
its
power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. For when we died with
Christ
we were set free from the power of sin" (Rom 6:6-7)
"Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to
your
new master, righteousness" (Rom 6:18)
"But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by
the
Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that
those who
do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at
all)" (Rom
8:9)
So where are all (or any) of the group of people who are new and different
from
any others, people that are free of evil desires, that do not practice
sinning
nor are controlled by it? I see a few individuals that fit that bill, but
absolutely no groups of people -- especially the Christian ones.
>> Sure, just like there are people who call themselves Atheists or
>> scientists but in reality they are not. You judge a person by their
>> actions...
>Certainly, yes. So again, are we saying that there are no moral
Christians
>anywhere in the world?
No, what we are saying is that whether you are moral or not, has nothing
to do
with you are a Christian or not.
>> ...so if we judge Christians by their actions, they are all ol'
>> devils.
>It seems we are. Is there a reliable statistical basis for that
statement,
>then, or is it based on personal experience?
Neither, it is based on objective observation of their behaviors.
The Sage
=============================================================
http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm
[The current anthropomorphic global warming nonsense is
based on] "inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar
to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week
from now" -- Dr. Richard Lindzen
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