On Thu, 1 May 2008 07:17:15 +0000 (UTC),
<Xns9A91399E64FETheonlyonethatcares@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "I'll Always Be Here"
<aussiessuck@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>Craig Stevens <craig_stevens@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>news:6k1i14dldocndnajsf0fg62mei1ktmlagd@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:55:41 +0000 (UTC),
>> <Xns9A90A18B747Theonlyonethatcares@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "I'll Always Be
Here"
>> <aussiessuck@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>In metzitzah b'peh, the mohel places his mouth on the freshly
>>>>>>>circumcised penis to draw blood away from the cut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those who do such should be prosecuted for being pederasts and
child
>>>>>> abusers.
>>>>>
>>>>>So you truly believe that the mohels derive sexual pleasure from this
>>>>>procedure?
>>>>
>>>> I made no such claim that they derived pleasure but the act itself is
>>>> pederastic thus being a form of child abuse.
>>>
>>>Your claim that the act is pederasty contains the legal implication of
>>>sexual pleasure. So either you are kurt knoll lying or kkkramer stupid.
>>>
>>>Circumcision is no more pedophilia than taking a picture of a naked
baby
>>>on a bearskin rug is.
>>
>> True but sucking an infant's penis is pedophilic.
>
>But not in a religious ceremony. Of course cutting someones chest open is
>assault, but surgeons do it all the time.
You are truly hilarious in your pathetic apples to oranges comparison.
>Do you have a point that doesn't prove you have a sick mind.
>
>>>You have a sick mind.
>>
>> It is you who has the sick mind if you condone penis sucking on
infants.
>>
>> Many Gentiles have their babies circumcised too but the doctor doesn't
>> go down and wrap his lips around the penis and suck like the Jews do
>> after removing the foreskin.
>
>And maybe there would be a better crop of gentiles if the doctor did go
>down and wrap his lips around the penis and suck like the jews do after
>removing the foreskin.
You have eliminated all doubts I have had about you. You have no idea how
pathetic you look in your justification of perversion not commanded by the
Law
of Moses. I suspect you are a Jew and what the mohel did to you twisted
your
mind as well as many of the others of your tribe who have such vain
reasonings.
The fact that gentile doctors don't suck the penis is proof that it isn't
necessary.
Sucking the penis most likely started with an old Jewish sage who was a
pervert
and liked the taste of blood. Thus a new tradition was born.
>Of course if you really felt it was pedophilia, you would do your best to
>charge a mohel with pedophilia. What are you doing to change this
>"barbaric" practice besides wasting electricity...or are you just being a
>typical forgiving and compassionate christian again?
You keep proving my point.
Earlier in this thread;
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:59:31 -0400,
<Y8KdnQJYpZgQhorVnZ2dnUVZ_tajnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
"God's Chosen Person" <baying46584@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>The New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene
>
>
>http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/std/std-bris.shtml
>
>
>Communicable Disease : NYC DOHMH
>
>Before the Bris: How to Protect Your Infant Against Herpes Virus
Infection
>Caused by metzitzah b'peh
>
>Circumcision has health benefits. Recently, however, the Health
Department
>has documented several cases of herpes infection in newborns after
>circumcisions that included metzitzah b'peh. Metzitzah b'pehis a
religious
>practice performed by some mohelim (religious circumcisers) in the Jewish
>community. Some of these infants became seriously ill. One baby died, and
>another suffered brain damage.
>
>Because there is no proven way to reduce the risk of herpes infection
posed
>by metzitzah b'peh, the Health Department recommends that infants being
>circumcised not undergo metzitzah b'peh.
>
>To help you protect your baby, we want to make sure that parents
understand
>the risk of metzitzah b'peh BEFORE the day of the bris, while there is
time
>to explore other options.
>
>How metzitzah b'peh spreads herpes
>
>In metzitzah b'peh, the mohel places his mouth on the freshly circumcised
>penis to draw blood away from the cut.
Those who do such should be prosecuted for being pederasts and child
abusers.
I don't see any such perverted practice being commanded in the law of
Moses.
I made an addition at the bottom of this post because it dovetails to this
information which everyone should be made aware of.
>If the mohel is infected with oral herpes (as most adults are), metzitzah
b'peh
>can expose the infant to the herpes virus. While severe illness
associated with
>this practice may be rare, there is a definite risk of infection.
>
>Oral herpes spreads easily through saliva, especially when saliva touches
a
>cut or break in the skin, such as during metzitzah b'peh.Most people with
>oral herpes don't know they are infected and don't have symptoms. Even
>without symptoms, however, people can spread the infection.
>
>Because the immune system of newborns is not developed enough to fight
>serious infection, herpes infections pose grave risks to infants.
>There is no proven way to reduce the risk of metzitzah b'peh
>
>Although a mohel may use oral rinses or sip wine before metzitzah b'peh,
>there is no evidence that these actions reduce the spread of herpes. A
mohel
>who takes antiviral medication may reduce the risk of spreading herpes
virus
>during metzitzah b'peh, but there is no evidence that taking medication
>eliminates this risk.
>
>Many mohelim do NOT practice metzitzah b'peh
>
>While some religious authorities consider metzitzah b'peh the only
>acceptable way to draw blood away from the circumcision cut, others use
>different means. For example, some mohelim use a glass tube - or a glass
>tube attached to a rubber bulb - to suction blood in a way that does not
>include contact between the mohel's mouth and the baby's cut. Others use
a
>sponge or sterile gauze pad to wipe blood away. Unlike metzitzah b'peh,
>there is no evidence that any of these practices causes infection.
>Ask about metzitzah b'pehBEFORE the day of the bris
>
>Some parents whose infants had metzitzah b'peh say they did not know the
>mohel would perform it. The Health Department recommends that parents ask
>the mohel several days before the bris if he practices metzitzah b'peh.
This
>will give time to talk to your doctor and consider other options for
>circumcision.
>
>For more information on circumcision, talk to your family doctor or
>pediatrician.
>
>More information
>
>An Open Letter to the Jewish Community from the New York City Health
>Commissioner (PDF)
>
> http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/std/std-bris-commishletter.pdf
I saw this posted;
From: "Heinrich" <Heinrich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: "Seif the Knife", fellator of 10,000 bloody penises, dies
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:39:46 +0200
Message-ID: <67otqkF2pumirU1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami_dade/story/511007.html
ABRAHAM SEIF, 86
Performed thousands of circumcisions
Posted on Sat, Apr. 26, 2008Digg del.icio.us AIM reprint print email
BY ELINOR J. BRECHER
Cantor Abraham Seif, the ritual circumciser who probably separated more
newborn
Jewish boys from their foreskins than any other mohel in South Florida
history,
has died at 86.
Known far and wide as Seif the Knife -- or The Yankee Clipper -- the
Polish-born
Holocaust survivor learned the delicate procedure in Brooklyn after World
War
II.
By 1988, Seif estimated he'd done 10,000 circumcisions, yet he told The
Miami
Herald that he still recalled the first one.
''I fainted,'' he said. ``Everyone does.''
He died on April 21 in Hollywood, where he and Edith Seif, his wife of 57
years,
lived with their daughter, Debbie, and son-in-law, Dr. Israel Wiznitzer. A
funeral was held.
When he came to Miami Beach's Knesseth Israel synagogue in 1950, Seif was
the
only Orthodox mohel for hundreds of miles around.
By the time he put down his scalpel in the early 2000s -- having trained a
son,
Rabbi Howard Seif, and a son-in-law, Rabbi Yitzhak Selmar -- Seif had
expanded
his territory to all of Florida, Panama, Caribbean, and parts of the world
where
the locals wouldn't know a mohel from a mojito, like Idaho and Haiti.
[...]
His favorite mohel joke, according to Howard: A man who needs his watch
repaired
walks into a shop with a clock in the window. The shopkeeper says he
doesn't fix
clocks; he does circumcisions.
Customer: ``So why do you have a clock in your window?''
Shopkeeper: ``What do you want me to put in the window?''
''He always played dumb'' when someone told him a joke he'd heard 1,000
times,
Howard said. Abraham Seif was born in the city once called Lemberg, now
Lvov,
and was conscripted into the WWII Russian army. The Nazis killed his
parents and
14 siblings.
[...]
By the late 1970s, the bris business was so brisk that Seif, on staff at
Mount
Sinai Medical Center, brought in Howard, then an accountant and Los
Angeles
rabbi...
(The almighty dollar seems to be the bottom line.)
.... But Seif fought for its life. He'd pick up the congregation's last
few
elderly men at home to make sure there was a prayer quorum, and walked
them home
after Sabbath services on Friday nights. It was sold in 2003 as a luxury
private
residence.
<STOP>
More (May 1, 2008) information on Jewish penis bloody penis sucking;
http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/mohel.htm
Shabbath 19:2
They may perform on the Sabbath all things that are needful for
circumcision:
excision, tearing, sucking [the wound], and putting thereon a bandage and
cumin.
If this had not been pounded up on the eve of the Sabbath a man may chew
it with
his teeth and then apply it.
The Mishnah
Translated by Herbert Danby
Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1933. pp. 116-117.
Shabbat 133B
II.1.
A. Suck [out the wound]:
B. Said R. Pappa, "A Surgeon who didn't suck out the wound - that is a
source of
danger, and we throw him out."
C. So what else is new? Obviously, since we are prepared to desecrate the
Sabbath on that account, it is certainly dangerous not to do it!
D. What might you have supposed? That this blood is stored up. So we are
informed that it is the result of the wound, and in the status of a
bandage and
cumin: Just as when one doesn't put on a bandage and cumin, there is
danger, so
here, too, if one doesn't do it, there is danger.
The Talmud of Babylonia: An American Translation
Translated by Jacob Neusner
Number 275. Volume II.E: Shabbat Chapters 18-24.
Program in Judaic Studies Brown University
Atlanta: Scholars Press. 1993. p. 45.
"There are three stages required for the performance of a ritually correct
circumcision in Jewish law: the removal of the foreskin; the tearing of
the
underlying membraene so as to expose the glans completely; and the sucking
away
of the blood, m'tsitsah." Roger V. Pavey. The Kindest Cut of All. Bognor
Regis,
W. Sussex: New Horizon. 1981. pp. 87-88.
"The method to be adopted is laid down thus: 'One excises the foreskin,
[that
is] the entire skin covering the glans, so that the corona is laid bare.
Afterwards, one tears with the finger-nail the soft membrane underneath
the
skin, turning it to the sides until the flesh of the glans appears.
Thereafter,
one sucks the membrane until the blood is extracted from the [more] remote
places, so that no danger [to the infant] may ensue; and any circumciser
who
does not carry out the sucking procedure is to be removed [from his
office].' .
.. . The operation itself, then, consists of three distinct acts: the
excision of
the prepuce; the laceration of the mucous membrane covering the glans; and
the
sucking of the blood from the interior of the wound." Immanuel Jakobovits.
Jewish Medical Ethics: A Comparative and Historical Study of the Jewish
Religious Attitude to Medicine and Its Practice. New York: Bloch
Publishing
Company. 1959. pp. 193-194.
"The baby cried, blood flowed on to his penis and - as the rabbi had
predicted -
Graham [the godfather] did not faint. The rabbi then bent over the baby
and
sucked the wound. I know this sounds awful, but it is part of the Jewish
tradition. It's supposed to help the healing." Jack Shamash. "My Son on
the
Cutting Edge." Independent (London), no. 3,797 (Thursday, December 17,
1998): p.
R8.
"And what of the practice of sucking the bleeding penis? While condemning
the
procedure, some physicians contend that it was used to stop bleeding.47
Not only
is there little evidence for this theory, but it was also a largely
ineffective
method. Furthermore, even in antiquity, surgeons had better methods to
stop
bleeding, such as pressure, instruments, and medication.48 According to
Dr. H.
Speert (1953), Maimonides 'staunchly supported this procedure [sucking the
bleeding penis] as a prophylactic measure against inflammation.'"49 Edward
Wallerstein. Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy. New York: Springer
Publishing Company. 1980. p. 160.
"mezizah -- Hebrew term for the third step in the Jewish circumcision
ritual, in
which the mohel applies his mouth to the freshly circumcised infant's
penis and
sucks up the first drops of blood. In more recent times this procedure has
been
carried out via a tube, as infections, venereal disease, and tuberculosis,
sometimes resulting in the death of the infant, have occurred due to
contamination of the wound. Most Jewish circumcisors today have eliminated
this
step from the circumcision ritual. Critics have attributed sadistic and
homosexual implications to this practice, while defenders claim that this
was
simply all that was known during ancient times to stop the bleeding."
Rosemary
Romberg. Circumcision: The Painful Dilemma. South Hadley, Massachusetts:
Bergin
& Garvey, Publishers, Inc. 1985. p. 395.
"The traditional practice of metzitzah b'peh, which has its roots in the
earliest history of the Jewish people and has survived unchanged to the
present
time, should be viewed with great respect. It is spoken of very positively
in
the Jewish literature on circumcision both as an essential part of the
ritual
and as a health measure which prevents infection and promotes healing."
Henry C.
Romberg, M.D. Bris Milah: A book about the Jewish ritual of circumcision.
Jerusalem/New York: Feldheim Publishers. 1982. pp. 57-58.
<STOP>
http://web.archive.org/web/20020712085004re_/www.torahcc.org/mishna/23-1-00/friday.htm
Torah Community Connection
Misha Yomit Program
SHABBAT: CHAPTER 19: MISHNA 2
One may do all the needs of circumcision on Shabbat: one may circumcise,
and
tear, and suck, and put on it a bandage and cumin. If he did not grind
before
Shabbat, he may chew with his teeth and he may put. If he did not mix wine
and
oil before Shabbat, he may put this by itself and this by itself...
Kehati
This mishnah lists the needs of circumcision which may be performed on
Shabbat.
One may do all the needs of circumcision on Shabbat: one may circumcise -
circumcising and cutting the foreskin, and tear - the thin membrane under
the
foreskin, which the mohel tears to reveal the corona, and suck - out a
small
quantity of blood to cleanse the wound and put on it a bandage and cumin -
a
type of plant, used for medicinal purposes.
<STOP>
http://web.archive.org/web/20070412092003re_/www.jewishgates.com/file.asp?File_ID=786
Gates to Jewish Heritage
Regulations and Stories About Circumcision
....The vast majority of Talmudic material dealing with circumcision is
found in
the tractate Shabbat. The discussions focus on what aspects of the
circumcision
may be done when the eighth day of a male child's life hits on Shabbat.
Circumcision (as we shall see later) supercedes all prohibitions of
Shabbat. The
Mishnah and the Talmud go into great detail about circumcision, which
defines
for us what the circumcision operation consisted of. It's the only place
in the
Talmud where we get this information.
Shabbat 133a:
MISHNAH. WE PERFORM ALL THE REQUIREMENTS OF CIRCUMCISION ON THE SABBATH.
WE CIRCUMCISE, (Cut off the foreskin)
UNCOVER [THE CORONA],(Peri'ah: Splitting the membrane and pulling it down)
SUCK [THE WOUND]...
Our sages now discuss each step of the circumcision:
Shabbat 133b-134a
GEMARA: Consider: He [the Tanna] states them all [separately]: what is ALL
THE
REQUIREMENTS OF CIRCUMCISION to include?
It is to include that which our Rabbis taught: He who circumcises, as long
as he
is engaged in the circumcision, he returns both for the shreds [of the
corona]
which invalidate the circumcision and for those which do not invalidate
the
circumcision.
The circumciser, from now on called the mohel, must do a clean job and can
"fix
things up" so long as he does it as part of the ceremony.
Once he has withdrawn, he returns on account of the shreds which
invalidate the
circumcision, but not for the shreds which do not invalidate the
circumcision.
The text goes into a discussion about who the anonymous Tanna is who made
this
ruling. I shall spare you...
Our Rabbis taught: The penis must be trimmed, and if one does not trim it,
he is
punished with karet.
He has cut on Shabbat (something forbidden...) without fulfilling the
mitzvah of
circumcision. He is therefore guilty of breaking Shabbat, a crime whose
punishment is karet.
The Talmud asks a fascinating question.
Who (is responsible)?
R. Kahana said: The surgeon.
R. Papa demurred ‘The surgeon'!
he can say to them, ‘I have performed half of the precept: You perform
half of
the precept.'
R. Papa is no longer talking about a circumcision which takes place on
Shabbat!
He's talking an adult who is commanded to circumcise himself. He's hired a
surgeon. The surgeon does 3/4 of the job; the surgeon has broken no laws
which
deserve punishment; he just hasn't finished the job!
Rather said R. Papa: An adult.
The adult who is uncircumcised must finish the task or receive karet.
R. Ashi demurred: Of an adult it is explicitly stated, and the
uncircumcised
male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, [that soul shall
be
cut off from his people]?
R. Ashi notes, reasonably, that the situation being discussed isn't an
adult
circumcision; it's a circumcision which takes place on Shabbat.
Rather said R. Ashi: In truth it means the surgeon:
If he came at twilight on the Sabbath, and they warned him, ‘you have no
time,
(to do a really good job)' but he insisted, ‘I have time:"
So he performed it but had not time [to complete it]. Thus the net result
is
that he [merely] made a wound (on Shabbat!), hence he is punished with
karet.
WE SUCK OUT. R. Papa said: If a surgeon does not suck [the WOUND], it is
dangerous and he is dismissed...
<STOP>
Hence those mohels are in truth "sock cuckers" or "nick dibblers."
There is an unsubstantial rumour mohels are taking infant foreskins and
selling
them as chewing gum to fellow rabbis. :-)
|
