On Wed, 07 May 2008 03:51:15 -0700, ARAH wrote:
> Alt wrote:
> Again, we do not believe in three gods. We believe in one holy God that
> is infinite that created us as finite beings, but loves us so much He
> came down in the person of the Son to experience our lives as we do and
> to provide a new convenant between Him and us.
>
> Prove to me that Jesus ever mentioned the above statement. Why get
> confuse with the teaching of John and Paul?
For starters, John 3:16 (which is Jesus being quoted, not John speaking)
says so: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believes upon Him shall not perish but have everlasting
life". This is the very first verse that every child growing up in the
church ever learns. It is the foundation for all our beliefs.
>
>> Now, the first and foremost point is that Jesus never preached the so-
>> called holy Trinity.
>
> Sure He did.
>
> First, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" in John 10:30. The Jews
> even took up stones to stone him and Jesus asked them in v32 why they
> want to stone him. They explicitely told him that they wanted to stone
> him for blasphemy; for making himself God. So, Jesus definitely knew
> what
> he was saying. There is no "oh wow. I'm sorry. I didn't mean it like
> that" after that. He continued with his position that he is God.
>
> Not necessary one person because the Father is not a person like Jesus
> but it is about One VISION and One MISSION. What is the Vision? To save
> the generation of Israel from being burned in the hell fire.
You've totally missed the context then. Jesus said "I and the Father are
one." He would've been totally cognisant that the Jews would interpret
that as making Himself equal to God, which is why they went to stone him.
You have missed the forest for the trees.
>
> The Prove
>
> Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
> instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the
> Samaritans. Mat 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
>
> (Mat 15:24 NIV) He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of
> Israel."
>
> (Mat 15:22-28 NIV) A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him,
> crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is
> suffering terribly from demon-possession." {23} Jesus did not answer a
> word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for
> she keeps crying out after us." {24} He answered, "I was sent only to
> the lost sheep of Israel." {25} The woman came and knelt before him.
> "Lord, help me!" she said. {26} He replied, "It is not right to take the
> children's bread and toss it to their dogs." {27} "Yes, Lord," she said,
> "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
> {28} Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is
> granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
>
> Why Jesus is not will to help the Canaanite women? If Jesus is God in
> human form what kind of unfair god is that?
There is no doubt that Jesus first mission was to save the Jews. They are
God's chosen people and Jesus was a Jew. No question about it, but the
Jews have always been the Lord's mouthpiece to this world. As his chosen
people they were to proclaim his Holiness. This is what the entire Old
Testament teaches us. When they rejected Jesus, He then turned to the
Gentiles (non-Jews) who embraced Him and accepted His love gift of
unconditional salvation.
>
>
> Second, Jesus said, "Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came
> into
> existence, I AM" (John 8:58). Now, how can a mere man or a prophet pre-
> exist Abraham? Abraham died thousands of years for Jesus was born. And
> how can anyone claim to be "I AM", a name that Jesus used to
> definitively
> say that He is God Almighty. It is notable that again, they wanted to
> stone him. It is not recorded in this instance, but there is no doubt
> that they were to stone him for Blasphemy.
>
>
> Yes before Abraham came in existence but why didn't Jesus did not
> mention he was around before Adam and Eve.? Abraham is not the first
> person on earth but the bible mentioned it was Adam
Abraham was the first prophet and is considered the father of the Jews.
Adam and Eve were the first people. It was more relevant to the Jews of
the day to talk about Abraham than about Adam.
>
>>Neither did Abraham and Moses et al. preach anything like that.
>
> Why don't you refer to the OT to understand the teaching of Moses?
>
> Given that Jesus' birth comes after, I'm not at all surprised if they
> didn't. God revealed His word over time, not all at once. Why? I have no
> idea, but he does have a plan and it's way more intricate than I could
> ever hope to understand.
>
> "I am a Jealous God" (Exodus 20:4-5)
>
> "Do not make for yourselves images of anything in heaven or on earth or
> in the water under the earth. Do not bow down to any idol or wor****p it,
> because I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals".
>
> Those were the Words of God, Yahweh, spoken to Moses at Mount Sinai.
>
> 'I am a jealous God!' He tolerates no rival. Yes! Indeed, He tolerates
> no rival.
From a christian perspective, your argument is moot. Jesus is the Lord
God Almight made Flesh. He is Yahweh.
>
>>The word 'trinity' doesn't even exist in the entire Bible!
>
> Neither does the word "Bible". What's your point? The Bible isn't a
> dictionary, it is a collection of holy scriptures designed to teach us
> who God is and how we may come by salvation through Jesus Christ.
>
> So everyone get confuse, the bible is not holy and not the word of
> Jesus. Jesus don't even called his followers as Christian. So what do
> Jesus called his followers and who are actually the Christian?
The only person confused is you.
Jesus is the Christ. Christians are the followers of the Christ. Should I
call myself a Disciple of Jesus? That's what the Disciples were called.
Maybe I should just refer to myself as a "wayist" as that was also one of
the names for the early church.
It's just a label. We call ourselves Christians because we follow the
Christ. Christ is the greek word for Messiah. I still don't get your
point.
>
>> Secondly, from logical and rational viewpoint, the so-called holy
>> Trinity cannot be existed in reality. Because it doesn't make any sense
>> at all as it's a logical impossibility!
>
> Trinity is from the Pagan or Greek. Greek believe in multiple Gods
Again, the doctrine of the Trinity is not polytheistic. It's monotheistic.
>
> Really? You would put our limited, finite understanding into an
> infinite,
> unlimited god? Some things are outside of our capability to understand,
> but that does not mean they are illogical.
>
> What is the characteristic of Almighty God in the OT and Al Quran?
I'm sorry, but I do not regard the Qur'an as scripture. Anything you
quote from there is of no effect to my faith in Jesus.
>
> 2:255 GOD - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-
> Subsistent Fount of All Being. Neither slumber overtakes Him, nor sleep.
> His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. Who is there
> that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave? He knows all
> that lies open before men and all that is hidden from them, [247]
> whereas they cannot attain to aught of His knowledge save that which He
> wills [them to attain]. His eternal power [248] overspreads the heavens
> and the earth, and their upholding wearies Him not. And he alone is
> truly exalted, tremendous.
>
> - Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
>
>> That's the reason Quran has strongly rejected the doctrine of Trinity.
>> Because it has nothing to do with the teaching of Jesus on one hand and
>> it's also an absurdity on the other. Therefore, Muslims do not wonder
>> at all when they see educated, intelligence and rational minded
>> Christians leaving Christianity in droves!
>
>> Islamic solution of holy Trinity:
>
>> Father = God the Creator;
>
>> Son (Jesus) = Prophet of God [Matthew 21:11 , Luke 24:19];
>
>> Holy Ghost = Arch Angel Gabriel.
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