sophia perennis wrote:
> Read The Bible <bibleverse2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in news:3c6fcab2-3e11-
> 48a1-aee9-5c42c44b7102@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >>> RTB had said:
> >>> It shouldn't boggle our minds to consider that the
> >>> tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:9)
> >>> could refer to an adult's knowledge of good and
> >>> evil (Hebrews 5:14) as opposed to a child's, which
> >>> need not be bereft of any sense of wrongdoing. God
> >>> in His perennial wisdom wouldn't have bothered to
> >>> command Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge
> >>> of good and evil (Genesis 2:17a) if Adam had had
> >>> no sense that to disobey a command of God was
> >>> wrong (Genesis 3:11b); nor would God have bothered
> >>> to warn Adam that if he disobeyed God he would die
> >>> (Genesis 2:17b), if Adam had had no sense that to
> >>> die was a bad thing.
> >> -
> >> sophia perennis said on May 14, 3:16 pm:
> >> [link to Genesis 3:22]
> >
> > Genesis 3:22 means that an adult-human knowledge of
> > good and evil makes adult humans gods (Psalms 82:6),
> > even though they will still die (Psalms 82:7) like
> > the animals they still are (Ecclesiastes 3:18-19). It
> > won't be until the resurrection of Christians at the
> > second coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22-23) that
> > some humans will no longer die, but will instead have
> > their bodies physically resurrected into immortality
> > (1 Corinthians 15:52-54), so that they will become
> > like the angels (Luke 20:36).
> >
> So rather than taking the Bible for what it says, you read your
> theological slant into it. Gotcha.
It hasn't been shown that any false theological "slant" has in fact
changed the intended meaning of Genesis 3:22, which must be understood
in the context of related verses:
Genesis 2:16 =A0=B6And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every
tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 =A0But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not
eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die.
Genesis 3:11 =A0... Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded
thee that thou shouldest not eat?
If Adam had had no knowledge of good and evil whatsoever before he ate
from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God wouldn't have
bothered to command Adam not to eat from the tree or warned him of the
punishment of mortality for disobedience. The fact that God did both
in Genesis 2:16 -17, and even rebuked Adam for his disobedience in
Genesis 3:11, shows that God considered Adam capable of knowing that
to disobey God's command was evil, and that to become mortal was
evil.
So then when we come to Genesis 3:22, we must interpret it in the
light of these facts:
Genesis 3:22 =A0=B6And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one
of us, to know good and evil ...
Clearly this isn't saying that Adam had had no knowledge whatsoever of
good and evil until he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and
evil, but is saying that after he ate from the tree of knowledge of
good and evil he had "become as one of us, to know good and evil",
that is, he had attained to a god's level of knowledge of good and
evil, which elsewhere in the Bible we find could apply to a normal
adult human knowledge of good and evil, for not just Adam, but other
humans are called gods in the Bible:
Psalms 82:6 =A0=B6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of
the most High.
7 =A0But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
John 10:34 =A0Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are gods?
35 =A0If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the
scripture cannot be broken
So all humans "unto whom the word of God came" are called gods, and we
have seen from Genesis 3:22 that they are called gods because of
their level of knowledge of good and evil:
Genesis 3:22 =B6And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one
of us, to know good and evil ...
Elsewhere in the Bible we find that this applies only to adult
humans:
Hebrews 5:13 =A0For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word
of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 =A0But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those
who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good
and evil.
So only those "of full age" mentally have the level of knowledge of
good and evil, through God's Word, by which God is able to refer to
them as gods:
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the
scripture cannot be broken
This suggests that coming into an adult knowledge of God's Word is in
fact equivalent to Adam's eating from the tree of knowledge of good
and evil,
for it is by reading and understanding God's Word, and accepting that
what it says is true, that adults come into a full and true knowledge
of what is good and what is evil:
Galatians 5:19 =A0Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are
these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 =A0Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies,
21 =A0Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the
which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that
they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 =A0But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 =A0Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
1 Corinthians 6:9 =A0=B6Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit
the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves
with mankind,
10 =A0Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for
even their women did change the natural use into that which is against
nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,
burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that
which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of
their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God
gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not
convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness,
covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit,
malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors
of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection,
implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things
are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them
that do them.
So by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam could
have miraculously gained all such adult knowledge of good and evil,
whereas humans today need to read the Bible in order to gain such
knowledge:
2 Timothy 3:15 =A0And that from a child thou hast known the holy
scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through
faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 =A0All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness:
17 =A0That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all
good works.
John 14:21 =A0He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is
that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and
I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. . . .
23 =A0Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep
my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and
make our abode with him.
24 =A0He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which
ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Matthew 4:4 =A0... Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word
that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
---
So what it comes down to is that Adam had a child's knowledge of good
and evil before he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He
had enough knowledge of good and evil to know that to disobey God was
evil and that to become mortal was evil, but he didn't yet have enough
knowledge of good and evil, an adult's knowledge of good and evil, to
where he could be referred to as a god, as in Genesis 3:22, John
10:34-35.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
The_Sage wrote:
> >Reply to article by: "1st Century Apostolic Tradition Endorcer"
<1stCentu=
ryApostolic@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >Date written: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:45:19 +0100
> >MsgID:<DASVj.6445$KQ4.690@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> >> And therein lies the whole point -- Adam had no knowledge of wrong,
so =
Adam had
> >> no way of knowing that partaking of the Tree of Knowledge was wrong.
Ad=
am had no
> >> way of knowing if what he did was evil,
>
> >He did know, for God had warned him not to eat it's fruit otherwise he
wo=
uld
> >surely die.
>
> Adam most surely did not know because Adam did not know evil or good.
The =
only
> way Adam could know evil and good is if he ate of the tree. It was not
goo=
d for
> Adam to disobey God, but since Adam didn't know this yet, he couldn't be
h=
eld
> responsible for disobeying.
Nothing requires that Adam had no knowledge whatsoever of wrongdoing
before he disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and
evil. Otherwise God would not have commanded Adam not to eat from the
tree or rebuked him when he disobeyed:
Genesis 2:16 =B6And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every
tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not
eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die.
Genesis 3:11 ... Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded
thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Genesis 3:17 =B6And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto
the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I
commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground
for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou
shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return
unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and
unto dust shalt thou return.
So Adam's punishment was just recompense for his willful disobedience
to God's command, which disobedience he knew was wrong.
>
> It would be like putting a loaded shotgun with a hair-trigger in your
livi=
ng
> room and telling your five year old son not to touch it. If your son
touch=
es it
> and kills someone by doing so, whose fault is it that someone was
killed: =
the
> son or you for putting the gun there for someone to use who didn't know
an=
y
> better?
God's placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil into the Garden
of Eden and then commanding Adam not to eat of it or he would die
isn't like someone putting a loaded shotgun with a hair-trigger in
their living room and telling their five year old son not to touch it
or he would kill someone. It's more like a father telling his nine
year old daughter: "You can eat and drink anything in the kitchen but
that bottle of drain-cleaner under the sink; if you drink that you
will die". Now the daughter fully understands the command and that to
disobey her father is not a good thing and that to die is not a good
thing, so she refrains from drinking the drain-cleaner, just as Eve
refrained from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil
because she understood that to disobey God is not a good thing and
that to die is not a good thing:
Genesis 3:2 =A0... We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 =A0But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest
ye die.
And that would have been that, except for a third party entering the
scene: the deceiving serpent:
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the
field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea,
hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the
trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,
God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest
ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes
shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 =B6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it
was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her
husband with her; and he did eat.
2 Corinthians 11:3 =A0... the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty
Revelation 12:9 =A0... that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world
So it was the devil who deceived Eve into disobeying God and eating
from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, by telling her the lie
that she wouldn't really die.
It would be like in the analogy of the girl who obeyed her father in
not drinking the drain-cleaner being deceived by a third party into
drinking it. One night a babysitter could ask the girl from the
kitchen: "So what do you want for dinner? Is there anything you're not
allowed to eat or drink?"
"No, I can eat and drink anything in the kitchen I want, oh, except
for the drain-cleaner under the sink. I can't drink that or I'll die."
The babysitter laughs. "Honey, you won't really die if you drink the
drain-cleaner. It's just a grown-up drink that's so tasty grownups
want to keep it for themselves, so they try to scare young people into
not drinking it."
"Really?"
The daughter goes into the kitchen, gets out the bottle of drain-
cleaner and gulps some of it down. The babysitter laughs. The girl
gets a funny look on her face as she feels the effect of the drain-
cleaner on her mouth, throat, and stomach. She rushes over to the
sink and tries to puke it out and drink down water, but the burning
continues. She eventually p***** out. Later, she's taken to the
hospital and survives for a few days, but then dies of respiratory
complications, as it seems she inhaled a lot of the drain-cleaner as
she was trying to puke it out.
So, who's fault is her suffering and death? Clearly her own for
wilfully disobeying her father's command and for not trusting her
father to tell her the truth, but believing the lie of the babysitter
instead. And of course her suffering and death is also the fault of
the babysitter, who deceived her into disobeying and distrusting her
father.
This is why both Eve and the serpent were justly punished by God for
what happened in the Garden of Eden:
Genesis 3: 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that
thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did
eat.
14 =B6And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done
this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the
field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the
days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy
seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his
heel.
16 =B6Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire
shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
>
> The Sage
>
>
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> http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm
>
> [The current anthropomorphic global warming nonsense is
> based on] "inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar
> to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week
> from now" -- Dr. Richard Lindzen
>
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