>> RTB had said:
>> It shouldn't boggle our minds to consider that the
>> tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:9)
>> could refer to an adult's knowledge of good and
>> evil (Hebrews 5:14) as opposed to a child's, which
>> need not be bereft of any sense of wrongdoing. God
>> in His perennial wisdom wouldn't have bothered to
>> command Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge
>> of good and evil (Genesis 2:17a) if Adam had had
>> no sense that to disobey a command of God was
>> wrong (Genesis 3:11b); nor would God have bothered
>> to warn Adam that if he disobeyed God he would die
>> (Genesis 2:17b), if Adam had had no sense that to
>> die was a bad thing.
> -
> sophia perennis said on May 14, 3:16 pm:
> [link to Genesis 3:22]
Genesis 3:22 means that an adult-human knowledge of
good and evil makes adult humans gods (Psalms 82:6),
even though they will still die (Psalms 82:7) like
the animals they still are (Ecclesiastes 3:18-19). It
won't be until the resurrection of Christians at the
second coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22-23) that
some humans will no longer die, but will instead have
their bodies physically resurrected into immortality
(1 Corinthians 15:52-54), so that they will become
like the angels (Luke 20:36).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> Merlin said on May 14, 4:01 pm:
> how do we get to sin being a death threat when all
> it says is we did not do what we promised god we
> would do. does that lead to hell?
There has never been a time when sin was not a death
threat (Genesis 2:17, Ezekiel 18:4b, John 8:24,
Romans 6:23). It is only the lie of the devil which
says that sinners won't really die (Genesis 3:4).
Unsaved sinners will go to hell (Matthew 10:28, Luke
12:5), which ultimately will be the second death
(Revelation 21:8), eternal torment in fire and
brimstone with the devil (Revelation 20:10,15,
14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).
> Merlin said:
> get off of sin as a device to judge others.
Sin is a device to judge ourselves (1 Corinthians
11:31, Galatians 5:19-21).
> Merlin said:
> there is no promise jesus will return
There is the promise that Jesus will return (e.g.
Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3, Acts 1:11;
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9,
Revelation 19:11-21).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
>> RTB had said:
>> The lie of the serpent was that they wouldn't
>> become mortal at the same time because of their
>> disobedience (Genesis 3:4).
> -
> The_Sage said on May 14, 5:55 pm:
> Correction: The Bible does not say Adam and Eve
> were ever immortal.
The fact that Adam and Eve were immortal is shown by
their being threatened with mortality as the
punishment for disobeying God (Genesis 2:17, 3:3).
>> RTB had said:
>> God had told them the truth that they would become
>> mortal (Genesis 2:17) ...
> -
> The_Sage said:
> Correction: God did not say they would become
> mortal, He said they would die the very day they
> ate of it. Of course, they didn't die the very day
> they ate of it, but died many years later, which
> means the serpent told the truth when he said that
> they wouldn't die the very day they ate of it.
Genesis 2:17 means that they would become mortal,
that they would surely die -- their death would be
inevitable -- beginning from the day that they
disobeyed God. God didn't say in Genesis 2:17 that
they would fall down dead the very day they disobeyed
Him.
The fact that they did surely die, although years
later, proves that the serpent was lying when he said
that they wouldn't surely die (Genesis 3:4). He's
still teaching the same lie today, although now it's
couched within demonic fabrications such as
reincarnation (contrast Hebrews 9:27).
>> RTB had said:
>> Genesis 3:22b simply means that God didn't want
>> Adam and Eve to live forever in a state of
>> sinfulness ...
> -
> The_Sage said:
> It doesn't say that at all.
Genesis 3:22b does mean that God didn't want Adam and
Eve to live forever in a state of sinfulness. For God
does want Christians to live forever in a state of
righteousness (Romans 5:17-19, 6:23).
>> RTB had said:
>> He had a much better plan: through the death and
>> resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ
>> (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) ...
> -
> The_Sage said:
> That is a most terrible plan: God planned to allow
> evil to exist for thousands and thousands of years,
> so clearly God does not believe in damage control
> or nipping things in the bud. God then decides that
> the vast majority of humankind will go to Hell
> because of the evil He gave permission to exist in
> the first place. That means billions and billions
> of people will go to Hell. Why wouldn't a "loving
> God" cut His losses to a minimum and stop evil at
> the point that only one thousand or even one
> million people would go to Hell, instead of the
> current billions and billions? Why doesn't God
> doesn't turn the other cheek to His enemies,
> instead of frying them in His version of Hitler's
> Ovens?
God planned to allow evil to exist for thousands of
years because He wanted man to have free will. Man
does evil solely out of his own free will; God never
makes anyone do anything evil (James 1:13-15).
God does believe in damage control (e.g. Genesis
11:6-9), when it's not yet time for that damage to
be allowed to occur (Isaiah 14:17).
Matthew 13:24-30 shows why God didn't root out all
evil humans in the past, and 2 Peter 3:8-9 shows why
God still hasn't rooted out all evil humans.
God has decided that the vast majority of humankind
will go to hell (Matthew 7:14, 22:14) because of the
evil which they have committed in their free will
which He has given permission to exist (James
1:13-15). That indeed means that billions of people
will go to hell.
While God is love (1 John 4:8), that's not all that
He is, for He can also hate (Romans 9:13), and He's
a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29).
God has no need to "cut His losses" with regard to
humans because all humans together are worth less
than nothing to Him (Isaiah 40:15,17). Even if every
last infinitesimal human went into hell, it would be
no loss at all to God; and this would still give Him
the op****tunity to show His righteous wrath (Romans
2:5-8) and to make His power known against their
sinfulness forever (Romans 9:22, Revelation
14:10-11). God saves a remnant of humans so that He
might make known the riches of His glory and His
mercy toward some sinners (Romans 9:23, Titus 3:3-7).
God did turn the other cheek to His enemies, when He
let them beat and whip and mock and crucify Him
(Matthew 16:21, 20:19, Mark 10:34, Luke 24:7).
The lake of fire and brimstone into which God will
cast the unsaved (Revelation 20:15, 21:8) will not
be His version of Hitler's ovens, for Hitler had no
right to do what he did to his fellow creatures,
while as Creator, God has every right to do with His
creatures whatever He wants (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs
16:4, Revelation 4:11).
>> RTB had said:
>> He would restore believers to a state of
>> righteousness and immortality (Romans 5:17-19,
>> 6:23).
> -
> The_Sage said:
> Yet another unfufilled promise.
Many of God's promises remain unfulfilled, for many
of them are tied to the future return of Jesus Christ
to the earth (Acts 3:20-21). Believers are purified
by maintaining their hope in this return (1 John
3:2-3).
>> RTB had said:
>> Genesis 3:24 simply means that God kept Adam and
>> Eve away from the tree of life so that they
>> wouldn't eat from it and live forever in a state
>> of sinfulness.
> -
> The_Sage said:
> It doesn't say that at all.
Genesis 3:24 does mean that God kept Adam and Eve
away from the tree of life so that they wouldn't eat
from it and live forever in a state of sinfulness.
-For God will allow Christians to eat from the tree
of life (Revelation 2:7, 22:14) and live forever in a
state of righteousness (Romans 5:17-19, 6:23).
>> RTB had said:
>> We do know the difference between good and evil
>> (Hebrews 5:14), but that ability isn't the
>> original sin; the original sin was Adam disobeying
>> God's command not to eat from the tree of
>> knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17, 3:11).
> -
> The_Sage said:
> ...something for which Adam could not be blamed for
> doing since Adam did not know it was not good to
> disobey God.
Adam did know that it was not good to disobey God;
otherwise God wouldn't have bothered to command him
(Genesis 3:11b, 2:17). But Adam's knowledge of good
and evil was at the level of a child's, until he ate
from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and came
into an adult's knowledge of good and evil (Hebrews
5:14).
>> RTB had said:
>> We indeed know that we must die; godlike knowledge
>> without immortality is indeed the terrible lot of
>> man (Psalms 82:6-7).
> -
> The_Sage said:
> Death is a blessing because without it we could not
> go to Heaven.
Death itself isn't a blessing, but the enemy of
humans (1 Corinthians 15:26). And death brings almost
all humans into the fiery torments of hell (Luke
16:22-24), not into heaven. Only Christians are
blessed in their death (Revelation 14:13), for only
Cbristians go into heaven when they die
(Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, John 14:6,
3:36, Acts 4:12).
>> RTB had said:
>> Animals do know, much more than we think (Job
>> 12:7).
> -
> The_Sage said:
> Humans think, much more than animals know.
We humans may think and know more than the animals
(Job 35:11), but we still act like animals (Jude
1:10; 2 Peter 2:12,22).
>> RTB had said:
>> If only God would give them the ability to speak,
>> as He gave an animal the ability to speak in
>> Numbers 22:28-30 ...
> -
> The_Sage said:
> That is a very common fairytale gimmick. In real
> life, animals don't speak and never have.
Numbers 22:28-30 is a true, historical account. In
real life, even without God's miraculous help,
animals such as parrots can speak and always have.
And scientists have trained primates to effectively
speak their thoughts by pointing to series of
symbols.
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
> Libertarius said on May 14, 3:32 pm:
> ===>That "god", YHWH ELOHIM, simply lied in the
> story, being an incompetent, jealous and vindictive
> Extraterrestrial creator of mud sculptures which he
> made to live by blowing air into their noses. He
> said the Man would die "the day he ate" of that
> fruit which, according to the story, was reserved
> for the ALIENS ("Elohim"). Then, to make sure they
> did not eat of his other magic fruit and live for
> ever, he chased the humans out of his garden.
There is no other God but one (1 Corinthians 8:4b).
YHWH Elohiym is the only God, the Creator (Psalms
100:3, Genesis 1:1). Jesus is that One God YHWH (John
10:30; cf. Psalms 23:1 and John 10:14; cf. Acts
1:11-12 & Zechariah 14:3-4), the Creator (John 1:3,
Colossians 1:16).
God in no way lied in Genesis 2:17, for Adam surely
died (Genesis 5:5).
God is in no way incompetent (Jeremiah 32:17).
God is indeed righteously jealous (Exodus 34:14).
God is indeed righteously vindictive (Deuteronomy
32:41-43).
God is indeed extraterrestrial, not in the sense of
being a physical alien creature living on some other
planet, but in the sense of being the Divine Spirit
(John 4:24) who is not bound to the earth, but is
omnipresent throughout the universe (Jeremiah 23:24b).
Adam was indeed a mud sculpture, which God made to
live by blowing of His Spirit into him (Genesis 2:7).
God didn't say that Adam would fall down dead the
same day that he ate of the forbidden tree, but said
that Adam would surely die -- his death would be
inevitable -- beginning from the day that he ate of
the forbidden tree (Genesis 2:17).
The plural "Elohiym" doesn't mean aliens in the
science fiction sense of physical creatures from
other planets, but almost always refers to the One
God YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4), who exists in three
Persons at the same time: the Father, the Word/Son,
and the Holy Spirit (John 1:1,14, 10:30, Matthew
3:16-17, 28:19).
"Elohiym" can also refer to angels (e.g. Psalms 8:5),
who also aren't aliens in the science fiction sense,
but instead are spiritual creatures from the heavenly
realm (Hebrews 1:7, John 1:51; 2 Thessalonians 1:7).
In the past, God has let humans eat the heavenly food
of the angels (Psalms 78:24-25), just as He will in
the future (Revelation 2:17).
God has kept only sinful humans from eating of the
tree of life and living forever in sinfulness
(Genesis 3:22); He will allow righteous humans, made
righteous through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans
3:22), to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7,
22:14) and live forever in righteousness (Romans
6:23, 5:17-19).
> Libertarius said:
> Finally, when all went wrong for the bungling
> "creator", he confessed he was "sorry I made them"
> (Genesis 6), and tried to kill them all by using
> the waters as his Weapon of Mass Destruction. -- L.
God is in no way a bungling Creator; it was humans
who misused their free will to become wholly
corrupted in their wickedness (Genesis 6:5), so that
God regretted that He had ever made them (Genesis 6:6)
and decided to wipe out all wicked humans with Noah's
flood (Genesis 6:7), sparing righteous Noah and his
family (Genesis 6:8-9).
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