No disagreements here.
> rapture
A term not used by all. Not an issue though, since we'll see when we
get there.
> millenialism
Define please?
> eschatology
See rapture. Not a problem.
> the Trinity
We all agree.
>
>Are you saying that *none* of these is
>im****tant enough for differences in
>doctrine to constitute or require loss
>of communion?
See the individual answers.
>
>> >> But we Christians DO have fellow****p together, DO have Bible
studies,
>> >> do pray, do share together,
>> >
>> >... and yet are *not* "one in spirit
>> >and purpose" [Philippians 2:2],
>>
>> ABSOLUTELY one in Spirit and purpose. Have you NEVER visited a Bible
>> Study Fellow****p group, or a Precept group? Or any of a hundred other
>> similar groups?
>
>I've been in many such groups. I've
>*taught* in such groups, going all the
>way back to 1974. I've also watched
>them implode when doctrinal differences
>arose which could not be papered over.
WHICH groups have you "taught" in? Not in Bible Study Fellow****p.
And I have NEVER heard of any Precept group "imploding" ever!
>
>> Where are you getting your ideas? From your priest?
>
>Where are you getting your views of
>Catholicism? From a Jack Chick comic
>book?
No, from rcc comic books I find in rcc churches, from my own
confirmation cl***** when I was a kid, and from people just like you
(who consider themselves to be somewhat "expert" in their religion).
I am vaguely aware of who Jack Chick is, and if you believe him. .
..naah.
>
>As I've told you before, I was a Protestant
>for four decades before I joined the Catholic
>Church. And I was a very active Protestant:
>I attended church regularly, read the Bible
>constantly, taught Sunday School, participated
>in and led Bible studies, etc. At one point
>I came very close to being ordained as an
>elder in a very conservative denomination,
>but got blocked at the last moment because
>I couldn't in good conscience agree to one
>of their denominational distinctives and
>they weren't willing to waive it. I'm not
>a cradle Catholic; I *have* been around a bit.
And which protestant denomination were you part of? Methodists don't
follow the Bible much, though they would claim they do. Episcopalians
are almost "mini-catholics."
What were you?
>> >nor do
>> >they speak "with one heart and mouth"
>> >[Romans 15:5-6], nor do they "contend
>> >as one man for the faith of the gospel."
>> >[Philippians 1:37]
>>
>> We absolutely DO. I don't know where you get your wierd ideas, unless
>> it is from the propaganda put out by your own religion.
>
>I get my "weird ideas" from four decades
>of attending Protestant churches and having
>a very large number of Protestant friends
>who span the entire spectrum of Protestant
>theology and practice.
And you still aren't able to distinguish between us? You STILL "lump
us all together?"
SHAME ON YOU! If you think you "know" non-catholics, you don't!
>
>> >Even worse, they
>> >don't even *try* to do these things;
>> >the only way they can manage to get
>> >along is to settle for a least-common-
>> >denominator kind of Christianity which
>> >is hardly more than an affirmation that
>> >"Jesus is Lord". As soon as they try
>> >to agree on anything more than that,
>> >the squabbles begin, and there is *no*
>> >mechanism whatever by which to settle
>> >those squabbles except to "agree to
>> >disagree".
>> >
>> We DO agree to disagree.
>
>So why can't you "agree to disagree" with,
>say the Mormons and JWs? They, too, say
>that Jesus is Lord. Isn't that enough?
The Mormons follow a "Jesus" whom they believe to be one of many many
gods of many many universes. They follow a false god.
The JW's follow a "Jesus" who was never God, but was only a man. They
follow a false god.
Since you have no problem with the orthodox, why can't YOU accept the
mormons and jw's on the same basis? After all, you don't want to be
devisive, do you? :-)
>
>> >> >Second, you have to know the history of
>> >> >that doctrine--where it comes from, who
>> >> >taught it and why, how the Church came
>> >> >to its present understanding of it.
>> >> >You aren't doing very well with that
>> >> >part, either.
>> >>
>> >> IF the doctrine (teaching) is in the Bible it is not difficult to
>> >> determine what God says.
>> >
>> >The Bible itself disagrees with you:
>> >
>> > There are some things in them hard
>> > to understand, which the ignorant
>> > and unstable twist to their own
>> > destruction, as they do the other
>> > scriptures. [2 Peter 3:16]
>>
>> SOME things are hard to understand,
>
>... which directly contradicts your
>previous statement that the Bible is
>"not difficult" to understand ...
My statement was a GENERAL statement, not an absolute statement. It
is generally true that the Bible is not difficult to understand.
Do YOU claim to understand all of it? I HOPE not.
>
>> but hard to understand is NOT
>> "impossible" to understand.
>
>But we weren't talking about "impossible",
>were we? We were talking about it being
>"difficult". First you said it's not.
>Now you say it is. Which is it?
See the above.
>
>> But in general, my statement is
>> completely true.
>
>No, it's not, by your own admission.
>You claimed the Bible is "not difficult"
>to understand, then you admitted that
>in fact parts of it *are* difficult to
>understand. You can't have it both ways.
If you don't know the difference between an GENERAL statement and an
ABSOLUTE statement, I am sorry for you.
>
>> >The very fact that Christians have
>> >split and fought and even died over
>> >different interpretations of scripture
>> >is proof enough that scripture is *not*
>> >easy to understand; some of it is very
>> >difficult indeed.
>>
>> Or it is evidence that some folks are better studied than other folks,
>
>I doubt there is anyone in your denomination,
>no matter how well studied, who can hold a
>candle to JP2 or Cardinal Ratzinger when it
>comes to these sorts of things. If "better
>studied" is the criterion, then the Catholic
>Church has you beat hands down.
You are welcome to your opinion, but it is based upon arrogance
regarding your own religion's "superiority" that the rest of us do not
share. Members of the rcc are not the only faithful students of
Christianity, and many of them are not students of Christianity at
all.
>
>> and more attentive to what God has actually said in scripture,
>
>Ditto. We've been studying scripture for
>nineteen centuries now. We've gotten to
>be pretty good at it. All those Fathers
>and Doctors of the Church didn't get those
>titles for nothing.
Not one single person in your religion has studied scripture for
nineteen centuries. They have only studied during their own
lifetimes. And much of what they have studied is the mere opinions
and idle thoughts of rcc leaders before them, based upon "new stuff"
added centuries earlier, but centuries AFTER Jesus established His
church.
>
>> rather
>> than simply following the "traditions" they have made up for
>> themselves?
>
>Your people make up your own traditions
>for yourselves all the time. The whole
>Protestant tradition of biblical exegesis
>is just that--a tradition. Much of it is
>made up out of whole cloth, with far less
>biblical justification than a lot of the
>Catholic stuff you deride as "unscriptural".
Again, you have the right to your OPINION. But the exegesis I see is
not made of whole cloth; it is straight from the Bible. Sorry that
you cast it off with so little observation of what it actually is.
>
>> >> How the teachings of your rcc have caused it
>> >> to "evolve" into something else is another story.
>> >
>> >Nowhere does the Bible say that all
>> >doctrine must be found in or proved
>> >from the Bible; and in fact the Bible
>> >specifically tells us to obey not only
>> >the scriptures but also the traditions
>> >received from the apostles. You have
>> >thrown those traditions overboard; we
>> >have obeyed the Bible and kept them.
>> >Who is being more true to the Word of
>> >God?
>>
>> The "traditions" you practice now (such as mariology, confession to
>> God through priests in little rooms {or big rooms}, praying to dead
>> people to intercede for you with God) are NOT traditions from the
>> Apostles, but are NEWER INVENTIONS made up by man.
>
>Or so you want to believe.
You cannot show anywhere that the mariology practiced today,
confession through priests in little or bigrooms, praying to dead
people to intercede for you with God WERE EVER practiced in the first
century. No statues, no lighting candles (certainly not with an
electric switch), no bowing before likenesses of men. THOSE THINGS
ARE HERETICAL.
>In some cases
>you are confusing the official definition
>of doctrine with its first appearance, as
>when you claimed that Catholic teachings
>on Mary were "invented" only in the past
>several centuries.
I am saying that it was invented in the past several centuries. You
have NO basis for it in the FIRST CENTURY.
>In other cases you are
>confusing form and substance. Whether you
>confess your sins in a big room or a little
>room is not of the essence of the sacrament.
>The essence of the sacrament is following
>the biblical commandment to "confess your
>sins to one another" [James 5:16]
James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for
one another so that you may be healed. The
effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
WHERE does it say to go to a priest? We confess to each other our
sins reguarly, and we pray for each other regularly. But NOTHING is
said of a "sacrament," nor is it EVER limited to the Apostles.
>in the
>context of Jesus' grant to the Apostles of
>the power to forgive and retain sins [John
>20:23]--a power which is still exercised
>through those who stand in succession from
>the Apostles through ordination and the
>laying on of hands.
And you think that ONLY THE APOSTLES receive the Holy Ghost, or that
ONLY THE APOSTLES can forgive sin?
SHOW ME A SCRIPTURE that says so. Not just the words of your leaders
who would claim to "stand in succession from the Apostles" (as if
EVERY CHRISTIAN from the first ones are new inventions rather than
having been led by our leaders who were led by their leaders, clear
back to Jesus Christ). YOUR leaders have always had a vested interest
in having us believe that THEY are IT. But the Bible never says any
such thing.
>
>> So of course we do not follow your tradtions of men.
>
>Nor do we follow yours. The problem is,
>*you* do not follow Apostolic Tradition,
>either--and that is a much more serious
>matter.
We sure do. And THAT tradition is in scripture. It is not made up as
you go.
>
>> >I asked God to show
>> >me whether or not the Catholic Church
>> >had the truth, and he showed me that
>> >it does. When I had problems with
>> >Catholic teachings, I prayed and asked
>> >for guidance and he showed me things
>> >in the scriptures which I had never
>> >seen before--things which explained
>> >why the Catholic Church teaches as it
>> >does.
>>
>> All with help from your priest, no doubt.
>
>"No doubt"? How could you possibly know
>such a thing?
Pretty good guess, huh?
>
>In fact, I had no help whatever from any
>priest in any of this. Most priests these
>days are not in the business of making
>"converts", especially of people who are
>already members of some other church. I
>never had a face-to-face conversation with
>a priest on any issue of substance until a
>few days before I was received into the
>Catholic Church. Any questions I had, I
>found my own answers.
So the blind (you) led the blind (you)?
>
>> >But of course you will tell me that
>> >it was God who led you *out* of the
>> >Catholic Church and into Protestantism,
>> >and I'm sure you are convinced that it
>> >is God who has shown you that what you
>> >believe now is right and that what you
>> >were supposed to believe when you were
>> >a Catholic was wrong.
>>
>> ABSOLUTELY. And the things He showed me still stand solidly True.
>
>So once again we arrive at deadlock. You
>think God led you out of the Catholic Church
>and into Protestantism. I think God led me
>out of Protestantism and into the Catholic
>Church. Now what?
Now we look at what GOD (not your religion or my religion) says. THAT
is the measuring stick we can count on.
>
>> 1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our
>> Savior,
>> 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the
>> truth.
>> 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men,
>> the man Christ Jesus,
>> 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the
>> proper time.
>>
>> Hmmm. We don't pray to a mediator (mary) to pray for us.
>
>You are confusing intercession and
>mediation. We are *commanded* to
>intercede for one another:
>
> First of all, then, I urge that
> supplications, prayers, inter-
> cessions, and thanksgivings be
> made for everyone. [1 Timothy
> 2:1]
We do intercede for each other. But we do NOT ASK others to become
"go-betweens" (mediators) for us with God. We can go DIRECTLY TO HIM.
Sorry if you don't think you can pray to God directly. I can.
>
>and there is no reason to think that
>those who have gone into glory ahead
>of us do not continue to intercede on
>our behalf.
There is no reason to believe they can. The rich man and Lazarus
picture in the NT indicates that the rich man couldn't go back to his
brothers, that there is a huge CHASM betwen here and there.
>
>> We ARE told
>> to pray for each other, but mary isn't here; she died.
>
> Is this not the reason you are wrong,
> that you know neither the scriptures
> nor the power of God? ... "I am the
> God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and
> the God of Jacob." He is God not of
> the dead, but of the living; for to
> him all of them are alive. [Mark 12:
> 24-27, Luke 20:37-38]
She still died.
Again, YOU don't know your scriptures:
Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and
after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
will appear a second time for salvation
without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
She died. They are alive in God, but they are NOT HERE. They died in
relation****p to us, here.
>
>> you bow
>> before them and ask dead people (who cannot hear you)
>
>How do you know they can't?
Why do you believe they can? Scripture doesn't say they can. NOT ONE
INSTANCE of bowing before statues is EVER given in the first century
of Christ's church. NOT ONE INSTANCE of praying through anyone who
has died is ever given. Why do you ASSUME they must be able to hear
us?
Oh yes, your candle-making monks need something to sup****t them.
>
>> to intercede for
>> you and pray for you, thinking that somehow God hears their prayers
>> better than your own.
>
>"The prayer of the righteous is powerful
>and effective." [James 5:16] And there
>are none among us now so righteous as
>those who are already standing purified
>before the throne of God.
We are ALL purified by the cross of Christ, and he is speaking of LIVE
HUMAN BEINGS, not people who have died. You have to RIP it out of
context to FORCE it to say that.
>
>> ALL of which is completely foreign and contradictory to what the New
>> Testament says about Christianity.
>
>Apparently not, since I can quote proof-
>texts for our practices just as easily
>as you can quote prooftexts for yours.
You have not shown one single person who has died, EVER interceding
before God other than Jesus Christ Himself. NOT ONE SCRIPTURE.
>
>> >Do you begin to see the problem with
>> >this whole individualistic approach to
>> >things? If there is no authoritative
>> >voice in the Church to define doctrine
>> >and interpret scripture, then God seems
>> >to be telling me one thing at the same
>> >time that he's supposedly telling you
>> >something else, and we each go our own
>> >separate ways. That is *not* the unity
>> >which Jesus wanted us to have.
>>
>> So you think that "authority" comes from the old man in rome,
>
>Your unscriptural disrespect for the elderly
>and those in authority is duly noted.
That particular old man does not represent "the elderly," and he has
no authority over anyone but catholics at all. Since I am not a
member of the rcc, he has no authority over me.
Do YOU respect the president of the mormon church, or sun myung moon?
I don't respect them either, and such disrespect of leaders of false
religions is not "unscriptural" at all.
Jesus did not respect the pharisees.
>
>> and not
>> from the Word of God Himself?
>
>You are posing a false dilemma. If,
>as Catholics believe, the papacy was
>instituted by God himself, then the
>authority exercised by that papacy
>*is* the authority of the Word of God
>Himself.
But IF, as Christians believe, the papacy is a manmade religious
thing, then the so-called authority IS TOTALLY FALSE.
So it is NOT "unscriptural" for me to disdain him.
>
>> The Authority of God is supposed to
>> depend upon the sinful nature of the leaders of your church?
>
>The authority of God flows through all
>sorts of conduits, and the personal
>righteousness (or lack thereof) of the
>ones who wield that authority is not
>necessarily a criterion. If we were
>released from our obligation to obey
>authority by the sinfulness of those
>who wield it, then all authority is
>dissolved and mere anarchy is loosed
>upon the world, because "there are
>none righteous" in this life. But
>in fact we are told to submit to our
>leaders insofar as conscience allows,
>whether they are righteous or not.
But I am not bound by the "authority" of the rcc, the lds, or the
JW's. And it would be unscriptural for me to accept them as
"authority" over me.
>
>> SHOW ME THAT in scripture, if you think you can!
>
>The priests of Israel were sinful men,
>yet never once in the OT did God tell
>Israel to abandon the line of Aaron and
>set up a new priesthood more to their
>liking.
>
>The kings of Judah were sinful men, yet
>never once in the OT did God tell Judah
>to abandon the Davidic line and set up
>a "New Israel" somewhere else.
>
>Even Caiaphas, the high priest who had
>Jesus crucified, was a conduit for the
>Word of God, simply because he was "the
>high priest that year". [John 11:51]
But nobody denied they were priests of God. YOUR pope though is an
entirely different story. Even your buddies the orthodox don't
recognize him as their "authority."
>
>> >Yes, there are prophecies about the
>> >Messiah in the OT, and Jesus fulfilled
>> >those. But neither the prophecies nor
>> >the manner of their fulfillment was
>> >entirely obvious *before* they were
>> >fulfilled.
>>
>> Agreed.
>
>Then it necessarily follows that neither
>the Bereans nor anyone else could be sure
>of having the right interpretation of those
>scriptures until the Apostles came along
>and explained it to them.
BUT IF someone came and said that James, son of Barfus was the
messiah, and they checked them out, they would have the same guidance.
The objective was to see if the speakers were speaking the truth.
The measuring stick was the SCRiPTURES, the WORD OF GOD.
As it is today.
Your leaders do NOT speak the truth.
As measured by the SCRiPTURES, the Word of God.
The Bereans didn't go to Barfus OR Paul to see if Barfus or Paul would
"explain." They listened to the speakers, then measured what was said
by SCRiPTURE, not by further "explanation" of the scripture.
>
>> >> Since what I believe the Bereans did IS ACTUALLY THERE, either
>> >> directly said, or clearly implied in the scriptures, I'll stick
with
>> >> that.
>> >
>> >But you don't. You *interpret* what
>> >the Bereans did, and you fill in the
>> >gaps about what the apostles supposedly
>> >did or didn't do, so as to make it come
>> >out right as a prooftext for your view.
>>
>> And what do YOU do? you have to "fill in the gaps" of scripture with
>> the "interpretations" of your leaders, then "fill in the gaps" of what
>> THEY say "about" the scripture as well.
>
>As do you. You have heard sermons and
>read tracts, consulted Bible commentaries,
>etc. Nobody comes to the scriptures
>without preconceptions.
But we don't DEPEND upon those preconceptions for our beliefs, James.
Instead, we MEASURE those preconceptions by the MEASURE of Scripture.
If they match, we keep our preconceptions (they are biblical), if they
contradict, we drop them like rocks!
>
>> Too many filters.
>
>You have more filters than we do. The
>Catholic Church has a single integrated
>magisterium; you have the chaos of a
>mass of individual opinions, every one
>different and none of them subject to
>any constraint except one's own sense
>of what is good and fitting.
We have Scriptures. You have scriptures DEFINED by leaders who
REDEFINED what those leaders said about them, REDEFINED what those
leaders said about them, REDEFINED what those leaders said about them,
REDEFINED what those leaders said about them, REDEFINED what those
leaders said about them, ad nausium.
We don't depend upon that. We examine the scriptures FOR WHAT THEY
SAY THEMSELVES.
>
>> >> Why should I try to "improve upon it" by making other people's
>> >> "opinions about" the text to be equal with the text itself?
>> >
>> >You "improve upon it" by making your
>> >own opinions about the text equal with
>> >the text itself. You do it all the
>> >time. You just don't see it, because
>> >you make no distinction between what
>> >the text says and what you think the
>> >text means.
>>
>> No, I learn what the text says and means FROM THE TEXT, not from
>> presuppositions about it.
>
>All right, let's give it a try and see
>how well it works in the real world.
>
>Let's try 1 Samuel 13:20-21:
>
> So all Israel went down to the
> Philistines to have their plowshares,
> mattocks, axes and sickles sharpened.
> The price for sharpening plowshares
> and mattocks was one pim.
>
>Without doing any other reading outside
>the scriptures, without consulting any
>outside sources or study notes, without
>asking anyone else to help you--in other
>words, just from reading the pure Word
>of God, and nothing else--tell us what
>a "pim" is.
>
Who says we cannot look at hebrew history and figure out their
monitary system?
Besides, my translation (NAB) says "two-thirds of a sheckel." It was
obviously a unit of money. What that was worth is not clear, nor does
it matter much.
in Christ Jesus,
Christian
========
From: jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Subject: Re: JESUS' METHODS AND THE EDUCATION OF HIS FOLLOWERS
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On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:28:28 GMT, "Cindy" <truth@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>Chap. 9 - An Illustration of His Methods
>
> The most complete illustration of Christ's methods as a teacher
>is found in His training of the twelve first disciples. Upon these men
>were to rest weighty responsibilities. He had chosen them as men whom
>He could imbue with His Spirit, and who could be fitted to carry
>forward His work on earth when He should leave it. To them, above all
>others, He gave the advantage of His own companion****p. Through
>personal association He impressed Himself upon these chosen
>colaborers. "The Life was manifested," says John the beloved, "and we
>have seen it, and bear witness." 1 John 1:12.
They were also the only people to whom He entrusted the supernatural
power of "miracles and wonders" (sign gifts)
2CO 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I
ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least
inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing.
---> 12 The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and
miracles--were done among you with great perseverance. <---
13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was
never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!
jw
>
> Only by such communion--the communion of mind with mind and heart
>with heart, of the human with the divine--can be communicated that
>vitalizing energy which it is the work of true education to impart. It
>is only life that begets life.
>
> In the training of His disciples the Saviour followed the system
>of education established at the beginning. The Twelve first chosen,
>with a few others who through ministry to their needs were from time
>to time connected with them, formed the family of Jesus. They were
>with Him in the house, at the table, in the closet, in the field. They
>accompanied Him on His journeys, shared His trials and hard****ps, and,
>as much as in them was, entered into His work.
>
> Sometimes He taught them as they sat together on the
>mountainside, sometimes beside the sea, or from the fisherman's boat,
>sometimes as they walked by the way. Whenever He spoke to the
>multitude, the disciples formed the inner circle. They pressed close
>beside Him, that they might lose nothing of His instruction. They were
>attentive listeners, eager to understand the truths they were to teach
>in all lands and to all ages.
>
> The first pupils of Jesus were chosen from the ranks of the
>common people. They were humble, unlettered men, these fishers of
>Galilee; men unschooled in the learning and customs of the rabbis, but
>trained by the stern discipline of toil and hard****p. They were men of
>native ability and of teachable spirit; men who could be instructed
>and molded for the Saviour's word. In the common walks of life there
>is many a toiler patiently treading the round of his daily tasks,
>unconscious of latent powers that, roused to action, would place him
>among the world's great leaders. Such were the men who were called by
>the Saviour to be His colaborers. And they had the advantage of three
>years' training by the greatest educator this world has ever known.
>
>
> In these first disciples was presented a marked diversity. They
>were to be the world's teachers, and they represented widely varied
>types of character. There were Levi Matthew the publican, called from
>a life of business activity, and subservience to Rome; the zealot
>Simon, the uncompromising foe of the imperial authority; the
>impulsive, self-sufficient, warmhearted Peter, with Andrew his
>brother; Judas the Judean, polished, capable, and mean-spirited;
>Philip and Thomas, faithful and earnest, yet slow of heart to believe;
>James the less and Jude, of less prominence among the brethren, but
>men of force, positive both in their faults and in their virtues;
>Nathanael, a child in sincerity and trust; and the ambitious,
>loving-hearted sons of Zebedee.
>
> In order successfully to carry forward the work to which they had
>been called, these disciples, differing so widely in natural
>characteristics, in training, and in habits of life, needed to come
>into unity of feeling, thought, and action. This unity it was Christ's
>object to secure. To this end He sought to bring them into unity with
>Himself. The burden of His labor for them is expressed in His prayer
>to the Father, "that they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me,
>and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: . . . that the world
>may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast
>loved Me." John 17:21-23.
>
> The Transforming Power of Christ
>
> Of the twelve disciples, four were to act a leading part, each in
>a distinct line. In preparation for this, Christ taught them,
>foreseeing all. James, destined to swift-coming death by the sword;
>John, longest of the brethren to follow his Master in labor and
>persecution; Peter, the pioneer in breaking through the barriers of
>ages, and teaching the heathen world; and Judas, in service capable of
>pre-eminence above his brethren, yet brooding in his soul purposes of
>whose ripening he little dreamed-- these were the objects of Christ's
>greatest solicitude and the recipients of His most frequent and
>careful instruction.
>
> Peter, James, and John sought every op****tunity of coming into
>close contact with their Master, and their desire was granted. Of all
>the Twelve their relation****p to Him was closest. John could be
>satisfied only with a still near intimacy, and this he obtained. At
>that first conference beside the Jordan, when Andrew, having heard
>Jesus, hurried away to call his brother, John sat silent, rapt in the
>contemplation of wondrous themes. He followed the Saviour, ever an
>eager, absorbed listener. Yet John's was no faultless character. He
>was no gentle, dreamy enthusiast. He and his brother were called "the
>sons of thunder." Mark 3:17. John was proud, ambitious, combative; but
>beneath all this the divine Teacher discerned the ardent, sincere,
>loving heart. Jesus rebuked his self-seeking, disappointed his
>ambitions, tested his faith. But He revealed to him that for which his
>soul longed--the beauty of holiness, His own transforming love. "Unto
>the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world," He said to the Father,
>"I have manifested Thy name." John 17:6.
>
> John's was a nature that longed for love, for sympathy and
>companion****p. He pressed close to Jesus, sat by His side, leaned upon
>His breast. As a flower drinks the sun and dew, so did he drink in the
>divine light and life. In adoration and love he beheld the Saviour,
>until likeness to Christ and fellow****p with Him became his one
>desire, and in his character was reflected the character of his
>Master.
>
> "Behold," he said, "what manner of love the Father hath bestowed
>upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world
>knoweth us not, because it knew Him not. Beloved, now are we the sons
>of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know
>that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him
>as He is. And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself,
>even as He is pure." 1 John 3:1-3.
>
> From Weakness to Strength
>
> The history of no one of the disciples better illustrates
>Christ's method of training than does the history of Peter. Bold,
>aggressive, and self-confident, quick to perceive and forward to act,
>prompt in retaliation yet generous in forgiving, Peter often erred,
>and often received reproof. Nor were his warmhearted loyalty and
>devotion to Christ the less decidedly recognized and commended.
>Patiently, with discriminating love, the Saviour dealt with His impetu
>ous disciple, seeking to check his self-confidence, and to teach him
>humility, obedience, and trust.
>
> But only in part was the lesson learned. Self-assurance was not
>uprooted.
>
> Often Jesus, the burden heavy upon His own heart, sought to open
>to the disciples the scenes of His trial and suffering. But their eyes
>were holden. The knowledge was unwelcome, and they did not see.
>Self-pity, that shrank from fellow****p with Christ in suffering,
>prompted Peter's remonstrance, "Pity Thyself, Lord: this shall not be
>unto Thee." Matthew 16:22, margin. His words expressed the thought and
>feeling of the Twelve.
>
> So they went on, the crisis drawing nearer; they, boastful,
>contentious, in anticipation ap****tioning regal honors, and dreaming
>not of the cross.
>
> For them all, Peter's experience had a lesson. To self-trust,
>trial is defeat. The sure outworking of evil still unforsaken, Christ
>could not prevent. But as His hand had been outstretched to save when
>the waves were aboutto sweep over Peter, so did His love reach out
> for his rescue when the deep waters swept over his soul.
>Over and over again, on the very verge of ruin, Peter's words of
>boasting brought him nearer and still nearer to the brink.
>Over and over again was given the warning, "Thou
>shalt . . . deny that thou knowest Me." Luke 22:34. It was the
>grieved, loving heart of the disciple that spoke out in the avowal,
>"Lord, I am ready to go with Thee, both into prison, and to death"
>(Luke 22:33); and He who reads the heart gave to Peter the message,
>little valued then, but that in the swift-falling darkness would shed
>a ray of hope: "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you,
>that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy
>faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."
>Luke 22:31, 32.
>
> When in the judgment hall the words of denial had been spoken;
>when Peter's love and loyalty, awakened under the Saviour's glance of
>pity and love and sorrow, had sent him forth to the garden where
>Christ had wept and prayed; when his tears of remorse dropped upon the
>sod that had been moistened with the blood drops of His agony--then
>the Saviour's words, "I have prayed for thee: . . . when thou art
>converted, strengthen thy brethren," were a stay to his soul. Christ,
>though foreseeing his sin, had not abandoned him to despair.
>
>
> If the look that Jesus cast upon him had spoken condemnation
>instead of pity; if in foretelling the sin He had failed of speaking
>hope, how dense would have been the darkness that encompassed Peter!
>how reckless the despair of that tortured soul! In that hour of
>anguish and self-abhorrence, what could have held him back from the
>path trodden by Judas?
>
>
> He who could not spare His disciple the anguish, left him not
>alone to its bitterness. His is a love that fails not nor forsakes.
>
>
> Human beings, themselves given to evil, are prone to deal
>untenderly with the tempted and the erring. They cannot read the
>heart, they know not its struggle and pain. Of the rebuke that is
>love, of the blow that wounds to heal, of the warning that speaks
>hope, they have need to learn.
>
> It was not John, the one who watched with Him in the judgment
>hall, who stood beside His cross, and who of the Twelve was first at
>the tomb--it was not John, but Peter, that was mentioned by Christ
>after His resurrection. "Tell His disciples and Peter," the angel
>said, "that He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see Him."
>Mark 16:7.
>
> At the last meeting of Christ with the disciples by the sea,
>Peter, tested by the thrice-given question, "Lovest thou Me?" was
>restored to his place among the Twelve. His work was appointed him; he
>was to feed the Lord's flock. Then, as His last personal direction,
>Jesus bade him, "Follow thou Me." John 21:17, 22.
>
> Now he could appreciate the words. The lesson Christ had given
>when He set a little child in the midst of the disciples and bade them
>become like him, Peter could now better understand. Knowing more fully
>both his own weakness and Christ's power, he was ready to trust and to
>obey. In His strength he could follow his Master.
>
> And at the close of his experience of labor and sacrifice, the
>disciple once so unready to discern the cross, counted it a joy to
>yield up his life for the gospel, feeling only that, for him who had
>denied the Lord, to die in the same manner as his Master died
>was too great an honor.
>
> A miracle of divine tenderness was Peter's transformation. It is
>a life lesson to all who seek to follow in the steps of the Master
>Teacher.
>
> A Lesson in Love
>
> Jesus reproved His disciples, He warned and cautioned them; but
>John and Peter and their brethren did not leave Him. Notwithstanding
>the reproofs, they chose to be with Jesus. And the Saviour did not,
>because of their errors, withdraw from them. He takes men as they are,
>with all their faults and weaknesses, and trains them for His service,
>if they will be disciplined and taught by Him.
>
> But there was one of the Twelve to whom, until very near the
>close of His work, Christ spoke no word of direct reproof.
>
> With Judas an element of antagonism was introduced among the
>disciples. In connecting himself with Jesus he had responded to the
>attraction of His character and life. He had sincerely desired a
>change in himself, and had hoped to experience this through a union
>with Jesus. But this desire did not become predominant. That which
>ruled him was the hope of selfish benefit in the worldly kingdom which
>he expected Christ to establish. Though recognizing the divine power
>of the love of Christ, Judas did not yield to its supremacy. He
>continued to cherish his own judgment and opinions, his disposition to
>criticize and condemn. Christ's motives and movements, often so far
>above his comprehension, excited doubt and disapproval, and his own
>questionings and ambitionswere insinuated to the disciples. Many of
>their contentions forsupremacy, much of their dissatisfaction with
>Christ's methods,originated with Judas.
>
> Jesus, seeing that to antagonize was but to harden, refrained
>from direct conflict. The narrowing selfishness of Judas' life, Christ
>sought to heal through contact with His own self-sacrificing love. In
>His teaching He unfolded principles that struck at the root of the
>disciple's self-centered ambitions. Lesson after lesson was thus
>given, and many a time Judas realized that his character had been
>****trayed, and his sin pointed out; but he would not yield.
>
> Mercy's pleading resisted, the impulse of evil bore final sway.
>Judas, angered at an implied rebuke and made desperate by the
>disappointment of his ambitious dreams, surrendered his soul to the
>demon of greed and determined upon the betrayal of his Master. From
>the Passover chamber, the joy of Christ's presence, and the light of
>immortal hope, he went forth to his evil work--into the outer
>darkness, where hope was not.
>
> "Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not,
>and who should betray Him." John 6:64. Yet, knowing all, He had
>withheld no pleading of mercy or gift of love.
>
> Seeing the danger of Judas, He had brought him close to Himself,
>within the inner circle of His chosen and trusted disciples. Day after
>day, when the burden lay heaviest upon His own heart, He had borne the
>pain of continual contact with that stubborn, suspicious, brooding
>spirit; He had witnessed and labored to counteract among His disciples
>that continuous, secret, and subtle antagonism. And all this that no
>possible saving influence might be lacking to that imperiled soul!
>
>
> "Many waters cannot quench love,
> Neither can the floods drown it;"
> "For love is strong as death." Canticles 8:7, 6.
>
> So far as Judas himself was concerned, Christ's work of love had
>been without avail. But not so as regards his fellow disciples. To
>them it was a lesson of lifelong influence. Ever would its example of
>tenderness and long-suffering mold their intercourse with the tempted
>and the erring. And it had other lessons. At the ordination of the
>Twelve the disciples had greatly desired that Judas should become one
>of their number, and they had counted his accession an event of much
>promise to the apostolic band. He had come more into contact with the
>world than they, he was a man of good address, of discernment and
>executive ability, and, having a high estimate of his own
>qualifications, he had led the disciples to hold him in the same
>regard. But the methods he desired to introduce into Christ's work
>were based upon worldly principles and were controlled by worldly
>policy. They looked to the securing of worldly recognition and
>honor--to the obtaining of the kingdom of this world. The working out
>of these desires in the life of Judas, helped the disciples to
>understand the antagonism between the principle of self-aggrandizement
>and Christ's principle of humility and self-sacrifice--the principle
>of the spiritual kingdom. In the fate of Judas they saw the end to
>which self-serving tends.
>
> For these disciples the mission of Christ finally accomplished
>its purpose. Little by little His example and Hislessons of self
>-abnegation molded their characters. His death
>destroyed their hope of worldly greatness. The fall of Peter, the
>apostasy of Judas, their own failure in forsaking Christ in His
>anguish and peril, swept away their self-sufficiency. They saw their
>own weakness; they saw something of the greatness of the work
>committed to them; they felt their need of their Master's guidance at
>every step.
>
> They knew that His personal presence was no longer to be with
>them, and they recognized, as they had never recognized before, the
>value of the op****tunities that had been theirs to walk and talk with
>the Sent of God. Many of His lessons, when spoken, they had not
>appreciated or understood; now they longed to recall these lessons, to
>hear again His words. With what joy now came back to them His
>assurance:
>
> "It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away,
>the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send
>Him." "All things that I have heard of My Father I have made known
>unto you." And "the Comforter, . . . whom the Father will send in My
>name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your
>remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 16:7; 15:15;
>14:26.
>
> "All things that the Father hath are Mine." "When He, the Spirit
>of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. . . . He shall
>receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you." John 16:15, 13, 14.
>
> The disciples had seen Christ ascend from among them on the Mount
>of Olives. And as the heavens received Him, there had come back to
>them His parting promise, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end
>of the world." Matthew 28:20.
>
> They knew that His sympathies were with them still. They knew
>that they had a representative, an advocate, at the throne of God. In
>the name of Jesus they presented their petitions, repeating His
>promise, "Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in My name, He will give
>it you." John 16:23.
>
> Higher and higher they extended the hand of faith, with the
>mighty argument, "It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen
>again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh
>intercession for us." Romans 8:34.
>
> Faithful to his promise, the Divine One, exalted in the heavenly
>courts, imparted of His fullness to His followers on earth. His
>enthronement at God's right hand was signalized by the outpouring of
>the Spirit upon His disciples.
>
> By the work of Christ these disciples had been led to feel their
>need of the Spirit; under the Spirit's teaching they received their
>final preparation and went forth to their lifework.
>
> No longer were they ignorant and uncultured. No longer were they
>a collection of independent units or of discordant and conflicting
>elements. No longer were their hopes set on worldly greatness. They
>were of "one accord," of one mind and one soul. Christ filled their
>thoughts. The advancement of His kingdom was their aim. In mind and
>character they had become like their Master; and men "took knowledge
>of them, that they had been with Jesus." Acts 4:13.
>
> Then was there such a revelation of the glory of Christ as had
>never before been witnessed by mortal man. Multitudes who had reviled
>His name and despised His power confessed themselves disciples of the
>Crucified. Through the co-operation of the divine Spirit the labors
>of the humble men whom Christ had chosen stirred the world. To every
>nation under heaven was the gospel carried in a single generation.
>
> The same Spirit that in His stead was sent to be the instructor
>of His first co-workers, Christ has commissioned to be the instructor
>of His co-workers today. "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end
>of the world" (Matthew 28:20), is His promise.
>
> The presence of the same guide in educational work today will
>produce the same results as of old. This is the end to which true
>education tends; this is the work that God designs it to accomplish.
>E.G.W [.Ed 84.1- 96.2}
>
>~ Cindy
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Reply-To: " Didymos" <me@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
From: " Didymos" <me@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.talk.creationism,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
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@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <c8kr305aq2v393tc4ccrh4s4j7rvdf142s@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: John W. Still Lies . . . was Re: Roman Catholic Doctines
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:55:25 GMT
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"jw @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:c8kr305aq2v393tc4ccrh4s4j7rvdf142s@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> x-no-archive:yes
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:54:02 GMT, " Didymos" <me@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jw @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
> >news:pt0p30hkgv3l7b8aqlu34o37pb4uk7ki0j@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> x-no-archive:yes
> >> On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:27:36 -0600, David Jensen
> >> <david@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In alt.talk.creationism, ah_mini@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Andrew) wrote in
> >> ><27eaec6.0402240341.1c48b79a@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>:
> >> >><snip for brevity>
> >> >>
> >> >>> > You lie and prove your lie in the SAME POST!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Golly, so you are not the only one who regularly practices those
> >skills, Mr
> >> >>> John W.? Albeit you show considerably more skill than anyone
else
> >> >>> hereabouts at making an ass of yourself by posting transparent
and
> >absurd
> >> >>> lies.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > LOL!!!!!
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> This is the same notorious liar John W . . . .we remember him,
the
> >liar who
> >> >>> claimed he was in a 1st century church in Turkey and a 5th
century
> >Baptist
> >> >>> church "just outside of" RAF Alconbury or Lakenheath; that he
was a
> >Vietnam
> >> >>> veteran; that Paul invented the practice of placing the letters
"A.D."
> >> >>> followed by Arabic numerals on cornerstones . . . . .and the
list
of
> >> >>> sillyass and preposterous lies goes on and on and on. And this
from
> >the
> >> >>> self-proclaimed theologian, sometime seminary student, war
protester
> >who
> >> >>> went to jail rather than kill in Vietnam, veteran of the Vietnam
war,
> >and
> >> >>> more lies ad infinitum. And this . . . no other word fits
better
than
> >liar,
> >> >>> so liar it will be . . . liar complains about others lying? I
have
a
> >nice
> >> >>> collection of some of your more absurd lies, John. Shall I post
the
> >list
> >> >>> again?
> >> >>
> >> >>Hah, the Church saga must go down in Usenet history! John W's
> >> >>nonsensical claims about 5th century *Baptist* churches (in the
heart
> >> >>of *pagan* Anglo-Saxon England no less) were checked up on and
found
> >> >>to be patently false. I have the pictures of Alconbury's gatehouse
> >> >>taken first hand by myself. I also have an email obtained by
Daniel S
> >> >>Vieria direct from Lakenheath's authorities stating that, to the
best
> >> >>of their knowledge, no such church exists in their area! I can
provide
> >> >>links to these if anyone's interested. Soooo, no church at
*either*
> >> >>base. Yet the best retort John could muster was a barrage of
insults
> >> >>and claims that I had not looked hard enough. Laughable!
> >> >>
> >> >>John W said at the time that he was gonna get his GI buddies to go
out
> >> >>and get pictures to refute me with. He never has produced
anything.
It
> >> >>seems he expects everyone else to run around refuting his
falsehoods
> >> >>while he sits on his backside moaning at the world.
> >> >>
> >> >We appreciated your work, but were not surprised that John has made
> >> >himself incapable of correcting his errors.
> >>
> >> What errors?
> >
> >Virtually every claim you have ever posted, Mr John W. is in error.
And
> >yours are not mere "errors," Mr John W., your claims are
extraordinarily
> >silly.
> >>
> >> jw
> >> >>
> >> >>Andrew
> >> >>
> >> >>PS: Why do you post with x-no-archive Mr Weatherly? Afraid that
people
> >> >>might look up your past messages and reveal them to be
inconsistent
> >> >>lies? Something to hide?
> >> >
> >> >Not to worry, almost every post of his gets responded to, so none
of
his
> >> >errors are forgotten.
> >>
> >> Yes, but some dummies are reposting my stuff to archive it. They are
> >> in for a RUDE awakening
> >>
> >How are you going to rudely awaken me, johnny boy?
>
> For starters, war hero (LOL!! ROFTLMAO!!!) ***** cat, please forward
> your contact info to my e-mail address so I will know where to send
> your subpoena.
>
War hero? I never claimed that. Care to post my words? I know it is
difficult for you to understand, but my assertion that you are not a
Vietnam
veteran in any way shape or form niether implies not explicitly states
that
I am any kind of hero.
Hire a lawyer. Your lawyer will know how to contact me for service of
process.
> then you can present your foul-mouthed, mindless POV, and I can
> present the facts, and the judge can sort it out.
>
The first affirmative defense to any slander suit is to prove that the
plaintiff and defendant never spoke to each other. Look up the
definition
of slander, Mr John W. An affirmative defense in a libel action is when
the
defendant demonstrates the truth of the pur****tedly libellous words.
Your
words are a matter of public record. They are archived despite your
ineffectual and silly attempts to prevent it. Why do you wish to hide
what
you have writen? Ah, never mind. Who cares why?
>
> put up or shut up.
>
Nah, I think you need to spend the few dollars finding out who I am
through
my ISP.
>
> How come it takes you so
> >long?
>
> Patience is a virtue; you, however, know nothing of virtue. *****
> cat.
>
And how is a persona and dogma constructed of lies, falsehoods,
prevarication, and obfuscation virtuous?
>
> You have been threatening me with all sorts of evil for many months.
> >I have been anxiously awaiting your slander suit to be served for
almost
a
> >year now. How long must I wait?
>
> You might speed it up considerably by sending me your contact info.
>
I might, but I probably won't.
>
> patience..
>
> Why do you object if your words are
> >preserved?
>
> I have explained that SEVERAL times, demoniac. Your inability to
> absorb factual information is noted.
>
Well, tough. I have preserved your words and will continue to do so.
>
> Are you ashamed of your own words? Well, I hope you are
> >ashamed, Jolhn W., because that is a good first step towards recovery
for
> >you.
>
> And when we meet, I will cast out your demons and you will have YOUR
> first step towards recovery!
>
But you still habitually lie. And you lie about silly and obvious
things.
Why should we believe you can cast out demons? Aren't you the same
deluded
individual who posted that he was a Vietnam veteran and that you went to
prison for evading service in Vietnam because you could not kill? And a
whole series of lies and falsehoods besides. Why should anyone believe
you
this time?
> :-)
>
> So show us how brave a Green Beret you are, coward. Send me your
> contact info and let's get the lawsuit started!
>
I am not a Green Beret. Never claimed I was . . . .lying yet again, Mr
John
W.? And my words are preserved so anyone and everyone can find and read
them.
> Right.
>
> In fact you are not hero; you likely are too pukey yellow even to have
> fought in a war. You are indeed a ***** cat.
>
Never claimed I was a hero. I may well be a ***** cat. But none of that
changes the immutable fact that you, Sir, habitually lie and bear false
witness, and then squeal like a stuck pig when you get caught and someone
identifies your lies. Are you sure you are not Satan masquerading as a
saved evangelical Christian? Honestly, Mr John W., your outrageous lies
are
something of an embarrassment to the real Christians. Seems to me that
embarrassing Christ and Christianty by publicly lying on a continuous
basis
is exactly the kind of tactic Satan would use to embarrass Jesus and hold
Christianity up to ridicule. Hot damn, I think I may be on to something
here. John W. just might be an atheist who is trying to make Christians
look ridiculous by claiming to be a devoted evangelical Christian and
then
very publicly doing exactly the opposite of what Christians are supposed
to
do. That theory explains so much. Is that what is going on here, Mr John
W.?
Did I break your code and expose your secret? Are you really Satan?
> jw
>
>
> >>
> >>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
___
_
> >___
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>
From: " Didymos" <me@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Subject: Re: John W. Still Lies . . . was Re: Roman Catholic Doctines
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"jw @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:kilr30drk4lkbpq7c51oqn77pqvb42evct@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> x-no-archive:yes
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:24:52 GMT, " Didymos" <me@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jw @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
> >news:q2vo30tm7p21rd0v1aurgdk8572t0g4qol@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> x-no-archive:yes
> >> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:08:23 GMT, " Didymos" <me@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> Hey! TOUGH GUY! ***** Cat!
> >>
> >> Think you're such a BMOC ! You have my e-mail address, Mr
> >> Congressional Medal of Honor War Hero!
> >>
> >> Send me your contact info (e-mail address, real name, and mailing
> >> address/streeet address) so my reps can get your subpoena to you!
> >>
> >> THEN we'll see how long you stay in your nice house, drive your nice
> >> car! And have all that money in those bank accounts!
> >>
> >> Prove to us how TOUGH you REALLY are, Commando man!
> >>
> >> You're a phony, a ***** cat.! And a DEVOUT coward who attacks the
> >> SAFETY of cyber space!
> >>
> >>
> >> Prove your macho!
> >>
> >> jw
> >
> >Oh my, must have hit a nerve there, eh, Mr John W.? What's a "BMOC"?
> >Congressional Medal of Honor? What Medal of Honor? Did I ever make
such
a
> >claim? Nice house? Nice car? Me? Wow, would you be disillusioned .
..
.. I
> >drive an '89 Chevy sedan and live in a very old and tiny little house
.. .
..
> >.How did I attack the "SAFETY of cyber space"? How does anyone attack
the
> >safety of cyberspace? Me tough? Nah . . . just old and arthritic.
Not
> >sure I have any "macho" [sic] . . . nor would I even know how to begin
to
> >prove it, whatever your delusional meaning might be behind that word .
..
..
> >"Phony," "***** cat," "DEVOUT coward," blah, blah, blah . . .
whatever .
..
> >. the fact remains that you, Mr. John W., still regularly post blatant
lies,
> >perfidious falsehood, and bilious blather nearly every day. And
whether
I
> >am a coward, ***** cat, "BMOC," or whatever epithet you dream up to
describe
> >me does not change the fundamentally dishonest character of your
posts.
>
> As I said, big mouth ***** cat, send me your contact info and let's
> settle it like two adults (I know for you, that's a stretch), in
> court.
>
> For all your dribbling, demoniac, you have yet to show me you have
> stones.
>
> I'm sure looking forward to driving your car and selling your house
> for my son's college fund.
>
None of which changes the fact that you post lies on a regular basis.
>
>
> jw
>
> >
> >Ah, what exactly is "a DEVOUT coward"? Devout is ordinarily not an
> >adjective used to describe me. How exactly does "a DEVOUT coward"
differ
> >from, say, a coward who is not devout? Would "a DEVOUT coward" be a
coward
> >who is extraordinarily religious or more pious than your run-of-the-
mill
> >cowards? Or would that be a coward who is a more earnest, hearty, or
> >sincere coward than the ordinary cowards?
>
> To quote you, "blah blah blah blah." I'm still waiting for your
> contact info.
>
> But in a few months I won't need you to send it. Patience, ***** cat!
> The marines are on the way!
>
> jw
>
>
> >>
> >> >"John W @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
> >> >news:p9eh305j44k231s1jqfrbnsa1cp712bvh4@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> x-no-archive:yes
> >> >> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:49:26 -0600, DOC <DOC@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In article <Z_zZb.5385$Ks6.89261@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
galia@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >says
> >> >> >this most vehemently...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "John W @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
> >> >> >> news:huua30dtb1197evon9ha6baur6t0kqv88i@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >> > P K, Elaine! Your sins have NEVER stopped you from jumping
all
> >over
> >> >> >> > others who don't live up to your warped expectations.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The same is true for you, J. Weatherly.......just a little
> >> >reminder....:-)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > And there's a long list of people in here whom you owe
repentance
> >and
> >> >> >> > apologies who will grow old and die and never receive
either.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This applies to you also ....
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >The afforementioned individual has been in my killfile for weeks
now,
> >> >> >galia------- yet I note here how he is still trying desperately
to
> >goad
> >> >> >me to respond to his false accusations.....
> >> >>
> >> >> Liar liar pants on fire! And you go back on my collection list
to
> >> >> forward to the proper authorities! "You don't read my posts",
but
you
> >> >> sure ***** at me!
> >> >>
> >> >The "proper authorities," Mr John W.? Aren't those the same folks
you
> >> >threatened me with about a year ago? Strange, but they forgot to
contact
> >> >me. How come? I was breathlessly awaiting their arrival . . . and
still
> >do.
> >> >
> >> >> LIAR!!! IF you don't read my posts, how do you know what I'm
saying
> >> >> about you? And this lie is so transparent it's sad!
> >> >>
> >> >Amazing . . . . the arch liar John W., patron of liars, calling
anyone
> >else
> >> >a liar . . . oh, the irony . . . .not to mention the stupidity.
Geez
..
> >. .
> >> >
> >> >> You lie and prove your lie in the SAME POST!
> >> >
> >> >Golly, so you are not the only one who regularly practices those
skills,
> >Mr
> >> >John W.? Albeit you show considerably more skill than anyone else
> >> >hereabouts at making an ass of yourself by posting transparent and
absurd
> >> >lies.
> >> >>
> >> >> LOL!!!!!
> >> >>
> >> >This is the same notorious liar John W . . . .we remember him, the
liar
> >who
> >> >claimed he was in a 1st century church in Turkey and a 5th century
> >Baptist
> >> >church "just outside of" RAF Alconbury or Lakenheath; that he was a
> >Vietnam
> >> >veteran; that Paul invented the practice of placing the letters
"A.D."
> >> >followed by Arabic numerals on cornerstones . . . . .and the list
of
> >> >sillyass and preposterous lies goes on and on and on. And this
from
the
> >> >self-proclaimed theologian, sometime seminary student, war
protester
who
> >> >went to jail rather than kill in Vietnam, veteran of the Vietnam
war,
and
> >> >more lies ad infinitum. And this . . . no other word fits better
than
> >liar,
> >> >so liar it will be . . . liar complains about others lying? I have
a
> >nice
> >> >collection of some of your more absurd lies, John. Shall I post
the
list
> >> >again?
> >> >
> >> >> . it ain't gonna happen.
> >> >> >The apologies I owed have been given to the people concerned,
and
he
> >is
> >> >> >owed none by me.
> >> >>
> >> >> Liar liar pants on fire. When are you going to apologize for
lying
> >> >> and calling me schizophrenic? Merely because Don said so and you
> >> >> thought it was cute?
> >> >>
> >> >Tragic . . . from someone who claims to be an adult.
> >> >
> >> >> When are you going to apologize for saying I was lying about
being
> >> >> mentally ill at all? When are you going to apologize for lying
and
> >> >> saying I was faking being sick to get out of working, like other
> >> >> deadbeats?
> >> >>
> >> >The day after your apology and retraction of the myriad falsehoods,
lies,
> >> >innuendos, and obfuscations you have scattered so liberally about
for
so
> >> >long.
> >> >
> >> >> You just don't get it when someone kicks your ass! So I have to
do
it
> >> >> again!
> >> >>
> >> >Oh? Strange how nobody but you, John W., even seem to feel the
pain
of
> >> >those . . . .
> >> >>
> >> >> And when it all comes together, darling, I GUARANTEE you a libel
> >> >> lawsuit!
> >> >>
> >> >Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . .you promised me one of those libel suits in
July.
> >I
> >> >am still waiting for my summons, John W. . . . . whatever could
possibly
> >be
> >> >taking so long? I am really easy to find . . . .
> >> >
> >> >> ;-))
> >> >>
> >> >> John W
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
>
>>
_________________________________________________________________________
_
_
> >_
> >> >___
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> >> ><><><><><><><><>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
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> >>
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>
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========
From: jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: RCC Examined-12
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>
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On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:01:56 -0800, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
>RCC Examined-12
>
>Purgatory
>
>Rome teaches that when Catholics die in an unperfected state, they must
>enter an intermediate realm of punishment called "purgatory" before
being
>released to heaven. Those who have ac***ulated sins which have not been
>sufficiently atoned for through penance must endure the sufferings of
>purgatory until the soul is refined and God's justice has been
satisfied.
>The torments of this halfway hell can vary in intensity, severity, and
>duration depending upon the guilt, impurity, lack of proper penance, or
>sorrow of the sufferer.
>
>Catholics are kept in fear all their lives by the prospects of going to
>this imaginary place. But Rome teaches that the period of suffering in
>purgatory can be shortened by gifts of money, prayers by the priests,
and
>m*****. Catholicism also stresses that friends and relatives can help
>lessen the time that loved ones remain in purgatory and even relieve
their
>suffering by financing m***** on their behalf. Rome collects millions of
>dollars each year from grieving individuals who willingly pay to
alleviate
>the agonies of those in purgatory.
>
>However, this frightening doctrine cannot find a single verse in the
>entire Bible to sup****t it. Rome has had to rely on ingenious twistings
of
>the Scriptures to defend this terrifying teaching, along with an
isolated
>passage from the apocryphal book of II Maccabees (12:39-45).
Which is EXACTLY why they use the A. If they didn't have the A, they'd
have NO justification for these heresies.
jw
>
>The concept of purgatorial sufferings after death challenges the very
work
>of Christ on our behalf. The Bible declares that "Christ himself. . .had
>died once for sins" (I Pet. 3:18, J.B.V.). There is no more need for
>further sufferings in purgatory. To demand further suffering and
sacrifice
>is to deny that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient the first time! Jesus
>said that "he who hears my word. . .has life everlasting and does not
come
>to judgment, but has passed from death to life" (Jn. 5:24, C.R.V.). The
>Bible also teaches that "if we acknowledge our sins, then God. . .will
>forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong" (1Jn. 1:9,
>J.B.V.); that God remembers our sins no more (Heb. 10:17); that to die
is
>gain, not torment (Phil. 1:21, 22); that to be away from the body is to
be
>at home with the Lord (II Cor. 5:8, 9); and that those who die in Christ
>are blessed and receive rest from their labors and not excruciating pain
>(Rev. 14:13).
>
>All scripture referenced is from RCC Bibles.
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From: Alberich <Alberich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Subject: Re: RCC Examined-12
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On 26 Feb 2004 22:51:53 GMT, jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>x-no-archive:yes
>On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:01:56 -0800, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
>
>>RCC Examined-12
>>
>>Purgatory
>>
>>Rome teaches that when Catholics die in an unperfected state, they must
>>enter an intermediate realm of punishment called "purgatory" before
being
>>released to heaven. Those who have ac***ulated sins which have not been
>>sufficiently atoned for through penance must endure the sufferings of
>>purgatory until the soul is refined and God's justice has been
satisfied.
>>The torments of this halfway hell can vary in intensity, severity, and
>>duration depending upon the guilt, impurity, lack of proper penance, or
>>sorrow of the sufferer.
>>
>>Catholics are kept in fear all their lives by the prospects of going to
>>this imaginary place. But Rome teaches that the period of suffering in
>>purgatory can be shortened by gifts of money, prayers by the priests,
and
>>m*****. Catholicism also stresses that friends and relatives can help
>>lessen the time that loved ones remain in purgatory and even relieve
their
>>suffering by financing m***** on their behalf. Rome collects millions
of
>>dollars each year from grieving individuals who willingly pay to
alleviate
>>the agonies of those in purgatory.
>>
>>However, this frightening doctrine cannot find a single verse in the
>>entire Bible to sup****t it. Rome has had to rely on ingenious twistings
of
>>the Scriptures to defend this terrifying teaching, along with an
isolated
>>passage from the apocryphal book of II Maccabees (12:39-45).
>
>Which is EXACTLY why they use the A. If they didn't have the A, they'd
>have NO justification for these heresies.
Which is EXACTLY why Protestants don't use the D-Cs. If they had the
D-Cs, they'd have to admit claiming no justification was a heresy.
Seriously, don't you two have anything better to do (like discuss what
you *do* believe, perhaps) then continuing to harp on about the RCC?
This is really starting to seem like a fixation.
Alberich
========
From: jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: RCC Examined-12
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:25:28 GMT, Alberich <Alberich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On 26 Feb 2004 22:51:53 GMT, jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>x-no-archive:yes
>>On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:01:56 -0800, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
>>
>>>RCC Examined-12
>>>
>>>Purgatory
>>>
>>>Rome teaches that when Catholics die in an unperfected state, they
must
>>>enter an intermediate realm of punishment called "purgatory" before
being
>>>released to heaven. Those who have ac***ulated sins which have not
been
>>>sufficiently atoned for through penance must endure the sufferings of
>>>purgatory until the soul is refined and God's justice has been
satisfied.
>>>The torments of this halfway hell can vary in intensity, severity, and
>>>duration depending upon the guilt, impurity, lack of proper penance,
or
>>>sorrow of the sufferer.
>>>
>>>Catholics are kept in fear all their lives by the prospects of going
to
>>>this imaginary place. But Rome teaches that the period of suffering in
>>>purgatory can be shortened by gifts of money, prayers by the priests,
and
>>>m*****. Catholicism also stresses that friends and relatives can help
>>>lessen the time that loved ones remain in purgatory and even relieve
their
>>>suffering by financing m***** on their behalf. Rome collects millions
of
>>>dollars each year from grieving individuals who willingly pay to
alleviate
>>>the agonies of those in purgatory.
>>>
>>>However, this frightening doctrine cannot find a single verse in the
>>>entire Bible to sup****t it. Rome has had to rely on ingenious
twistings of
>>>the Scriptures to defend this terrifying teaching, along with an
isolated
>>>passage from the apocryphal book of II Maccabees (12:39-45).
>>
>>Which is EXACTLY why they use the A. If they didn't have the A, they'd
>>have NO justification for these heresies.
>
>Which is EXACTLY why Protestants don't use the D-Cs. If they had the
>D-Cs, they'd have to admit claiming no justification was a heresy.
>
>Seriously, don't you two have anything better to do (like discuss what
>you *do* believe, perhaps) then continuing to harp on about the RCC?
Nope. Don't you have anything better to do THAN (not "then")
continuing to harp on about REAL (NON-Catholic ) Christianity?
>This is really starting to seem like a fixation.
I keep wondering why Roman Catholics keep feeling like they have to
come into a non-Roman Catholic group to "defend" a "faith" that "needs
no defending".... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
And so long as Roman Catholics come into the baptist group to
preach/proselytize/defend Roman Catholic heresies
(anti-/contra-Biblical dogma), I and other born-agains will defend the
true Gospel of the Christ. Someone has to.
You guys keep calling me a liar for pointing out Rome's many errors,
lies, and heresies. All *I* am doing is quoting the BIBLE!!
:-)
And seems like God has elected me as one such defender of the faith.
Paul and Peter were both abused, maligned, lied about, tortured, and
eventually murdered for opposing the spirit of anti-Christ, including
the one seated at the Vatican. I may well face the same sort of death.
But I will defend the faith of Peter and Paul as long as God gives me
breath. Call it obsession? I call it the faith of Christ.
JN 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through
him, the world did not recognize him.
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive
him.
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he
gave the right to become children of God--
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a
husband's will, but born of God.
HOW do infants BELIEVE on His name?
They do not need to. Infants have never sinned. They go to Heaven when
they die as infants. Automatically, do not pass "Go", "Get out of Jail
Free" card, no "purgatory".
I also have noted with predicted amusement your continued dodge of my
request for your "personal testimony" of when you became a born-again
Christian as you claim to be.
COL 4:2 Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful.
3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so
that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.
4 Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should.
5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every
op****tunity.
6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt,
SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW HOW TO ANSWER EVERYONE.
When someone (me) asks you for your personal "testimony", you are
required to answer.
You do not.
"I smell a rat."
jw
>
>Alberich
_________________________________________________________________________
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Reply-To: "Chris" <vze235xx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
From: "Chris" <vze235xx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.talk.creationism,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
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<k0tt30h70lju0g5spnke2hvbantfuhlhqf@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Subject: Re: RCC Examined-12
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"jw @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:k0tt30h70lju0g5spnke2hvbantfuhlhqf@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> x-no-archive:yes
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:25:28 GMT, Alberich <Alberich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>
> >On 26 Feb 2004 22:51:53 GMT, jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>x-no-archive:yes
> >>On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:01:56 -0800, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
> >>
> >>>RCC Examined-12
> >>>
> >>>Purgatory
> >>>
> >>>Rome teaches that when Catholics die in an unperfected state, they
must
> >>>enter an intermediate realm of punishment called "purgatory" before
being
> >>>released to heaven. Those who have ac***ulated sins which have not
been
> >>>sufficiently atoned for through penance must endure the sufferings
of
> >>>purgatory until the soul is refined and God's justice has been
satisfied.
> >>>The torments of this halfway hell can vary in intensity, severity,
and
> >>>duration depending upon the guilt, impurity, lack of proper penance,
or
> >>>sorrow of the sufferer.
> >>>
> >>>Catholics are kept in fear all their lives by the prospects of going
to
> >>>this imaginary place. But Rome teaches that the period of suffering
in
> >>>purgatory can be shortened by gifts of money, prayers by the
priests,
and
> >>>m*****. Catholicism also stresses that friends and relatives can
help
> >>>lessen the time that loved ones remain in purgatory and even relieve
their
> >>>suffering by financing m***** on their behalf. Rome collects
millions
of
> >>>dollars each year from grieving individuals who willingly pay to
alleviate
> >>>the agonies of those in purgatory.
> >>>
> >>>However, this frightening doctrine cannot find a single verse in the
> >>>entire Bible to sup****t it. Rome has had to rely on ingenious
twistings
of
> >>>the Scriptures to defend this terrifying teaching, along with an
isolated
> >>>passage from the apocryphal book of II Maccabees (12:39-45).
> >>
> >>Which is EXACTLY why they use the A. If they didn't have the A,
they'd
> >>have NO justification for these heresies.
> >
> >Which is EXACTLY why Protestants don't use the D-Cs. If they had the
> >D-Cs, they'd have to admit claiming no justification was a heresy.
> >
> >Seriously, don't you two have anything better to do (like discuss what
> >you *do* believe, perhaps) then continuing to harp on about the RCC?
>
> Nope. Don't you have anything better to do THAN (not "then")
> continuing to harp on about REAL (NON-Catholic ) Christianity?
>
> >This is really starting to seem like a fixation.
>
>
> I keep wondering why Roman Catholics keep feeling like they have to
> come into a non-Roman Catholic group to "defend" a "faith" that "needs
> no defending".... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Because IKHDY posts his odd brand of Protestantism in
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic. He's the instigator.
Chris
>
> And so long as Roman Catholics come into the baptist group to
> preach/proselytize/defend Roman Catholic heresies
> (anti-/contra-Biblical dogma), I and other born-agains will defend the
> true Gospel of the Christ. Someone has to.
>
> You guys keep calling me a liar for pointing out Rome's many errors,
> lies, and heresies. All *I* am doing is quoting the BIBLE!!
>
> :-)
>
> And seems like God has elected me as one such defender of the faith.
>
> Paul and Peter were both abused, maligned, lied about, tortured, and
> eventually murdered for opposing the spirit of anti-Christ, including
> the one seated at the Vatican. I may well face the same sort of death.
> But I will defend the faith of Peter and Paul as long as God gives me
> breath. Call it obsession? I call it the faith of Christ.
>
> JN 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through
> him, the world did not recognize him.
> 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive
> him.
> 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he
> gave the right to become children of God--
> 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a
> husband's will, but born of God.
>
> HOW do infants BELIEVE on His name?
>
> They do not need to. Infants have never sinned. They go to Heaven when
> they die as infants. Automatically, do not pass "Go", "Get out of Jail
> Free" card, no "purgatory".
>
> I also have noted with predicted amusement your continued dodge of my
> request for your "personal testimony" of when you became a born-again
> Christian as you claim to be.
>
> COL 4:2 Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful.
> 3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so
> that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.
> 4 Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should.
> 5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every
> op****tunity.
> 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt,
> SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW HOW TO ANSWER EVERYONE.
>
> When someone (me) asks you for your personal "testimony", you are
> required to answer.
>
> You do not.
>
> "I smell a rat."
>
> jw
>
>
> >
> >Alberich
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
___
___
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From: jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.talk.creationism,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
n.roman-
catholic,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.religion.christianity
Subject: Re: RCC Examined-12
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:30:27 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>
>"jw @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
>news:k0tt30h70lju0g5spnke2hvbantfuhlhqf@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> x-no-archive:yes
>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:25:28 GMT, Alberich <Alberich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 26 Feb 2004 22:51:53 GMT, jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>x-no-archive:yes
>> >>On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:01:56 -0800, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>RCC Examined-12
>> >>>
>> >>>Purgatory
>> >>>
>> >>>Rome teaches that when Catholics die in an unperfected state, they
must
>> >>>enter an intermediate realm of punishment called "purgatory" before
>being
>> >>>released to heaven. Those who have ac***ulated sins which have not
been
>> >>>sufficiently atoned for through penance must endure the sufferings
of
>> >>>purgatory until the soul is refined and God's justice has been
>satisfied.
>> >>>The torments of this halfway hell can vary in intensity, severity,
and
>> >>>duration depending upon the guilt, impurity, lack of proper
penance, or
>> >>>sorrow of the sufferer.
>> >>>
>> >>>Catholics are kept in fear all their lives by the prospects of
going to
>> >>>this imaginary place. But Rome teaches that the period of suffering
in
>> >>>purgatory can be shortened by gifts of money, prayers by the
priests,
>and
>> >>>m*****. Catholicism also stresses that friends and relatives can
help
>> >>>lessen the time that loved ones remain in purgatory and even
relieve
>their
>> >>>suffering by financing m***** on their behalf. Rome collects
millions
>of
>> >>>dollars each year from grieving individuals who willingly pay to
>alleviate
>> >>>the agonies of those in purgatory.
>> >>>
>> >>>However, this frightening doctrine cannot find a single verse in
the
>> >>>entire Bible to sup****t it. Rome has had to rely on ingenious
twistings
>of
>> >>>the Scriptures to defend this terrifying teaching, along with an
>isolated
>> >>>passage from the apocryphal book of II Maccabees (12:39-45).
>> >>
>> >>Which is EXACTLY why they use the A. If they didn't have the A,
they'd
>> >>have NO justification for these heresies.
>> >
>> >Which is EXACTLY why Protestants don't use the D-Cs. If they had the
>> >D-Cs, they'd have to admit claiming no justification was a heresy.
>> >
>> >Seriously, don't you two have anything better to do (like discuss
what
>> >you *do* believe, perhaps) then continuing to harp on about the RCC?
>>
>> Nope. Don't you have anything better to do THAN (not "then")
>> continuing to harp on about REAL (NON-Catholic ) Christianity?
>>
>> >This is really starting to seem like a fixation.
>>
>>
>> I keep wondering why Roman Catholics keep feeling like they have to
>> come into a non-Roman Catholic group to "defend" a "faith" that "needs
>> no defending".... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
>
>
>Because IKHDY posts his odd brand of Protestantism in
>alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic. He's the instigator.
>
>
>Chris
If he is so silly, why not ignore him? Why MUST you engage?
jw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> And so long as Roman Catholics come into the baptist group to
>> preach/proselytize/defend Roman Catholic heresies
>> (anti-/contra-Biblical dogma), I and other born-agains will defend the
>> true Gospel of the Christ. Someone has to.
>>
>> You guys keep calling me a liar for pointing out Rome's many errors,
>> lies, and heresies. All *I* am doing is quoting the BIBLE!!
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> And seems like God has elected me as one such defender of the faith.
>>
>> Paul and Peter were both abused, maligned, lied about, tortured, and
>> eventually murdered for opposing the spirit of anti-Christ, including
>> the one seated at the Vatican. I may well face the same sort of death.
>> But I will defend the faith of Peter and Paul as long as God gives me
>> breath. Call it obsession? I call it the faith of Christ.
>>
>> JN 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through
>> him, the world did not recognize him.
>> 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive
>> him.
>> 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who BELIEVED in his name, he
>> gave the right to become children of God--
>> 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a
>> husband's will, but born of God.
>>
>> HOW do infants BELIEVE on His name?
>>
>> They do not need to. Infants have never sinned. They go to Heaven when
>> they die as infants. Automatically, do not pass "Go", "Get out of Jail
>> Free" card, no "purgatory".
>>
>> I also have noted with predicted amusement your continued dodge of my
>> request for your "personal testimony" of when you became a born-again
>> Christian as you claim to be.
>>
>> COL 4:2 Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful.
>> 3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so
>> that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.
>> 4 Pray that I may proclaim it clearly, as I should.
>> 5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every
>> op****tunity.
>> 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt,
>> SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW HOW TO ANSWER EVERYONE.
>>
>> When someone (me) asks you for your personal "testimony", you are
>> required to answer.
>>
>> You do not.
>>
>> "I smell a rat."
>>
>> jw
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Alberich
>>
>>
>>
>________________________________________________________________________
____
>___
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><><><><><><><><>
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From: Alberich <Alberich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.talk.creationism,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
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Subject: Re: RCC Examined-12
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On 27 Feb 2004 21:48:09 GMT, jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>x-no-archive:yes
>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:30:27 GMT, "Chris" <vze235xx@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"jw @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
>>news:k0tt30h70lju0g5spnke2hvbantfuhlhqf@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> x-no-archive:yes
>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:25:28 GMT, Alberich <Alberich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On 26 Feb 2004 22:51:53 GMT, jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>> >wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>x-no-archive:yes
>>> >>On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:01:56 -0800, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> >>(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>RCC Examined-12
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Purgatory
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Rome teaches that when Catholics die in an unperfected state, they
must
>>> >>>enter an intermediate realm of punishment called "purgatory"
before
>>being
>>> >>>released to heaven. Those who have ac***ulated sins which have not
been
>>> >>>sufficiently atoned for through penance must endure the sufferings
of
>>> >>>purgatory until the soul is refined and God's justice has been
>>satisfied.
>>> >>>The torments of this halfway hell can vary in intensity, severity,
and
>>> >>>duration depending upon the guilt, impurity, lack of proper
penance, or
>>> >>>sorrow of the sufferer.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Catholics are kept in fear all their lives by the prospects of
going to
>>> >>>this imaginary place. But Rome teaches that the period of
suffering in
>>> >>>purgatory can be shortened by gifts of money, prayers by the
priests,
>>and
>>> >>>m*****. Catholicism also stresses that friends and relatives can
help
>>> >>>lessen the time that loved ones remain in purgatory and even
relieve
>>their
>>> >>>suffering by financing m***** on their behalf. Rome collects
millions
>>of
>>> >>>dollars each year from grieving individuals who willingly pay to
>>alleviate
>>> >>>the agonies of those in purgatory.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>However, this frightening doctrine cannot find a single verse in
the
>>> >>>entire Bible to sup****t it. Rome has had to rely on ingenious
twistings
>>of
>>> >>>the Scriptures to defend this terrifying teaching, along with an
>>isolated
>>> >>>passage from the apocryphal book of II Maccabees (12:39-45).
>>> >>
>>> >>Which is EXACTLY why they use the A. If they didn't have the A,
they'd
>>> >>have NO justification for these heresies.
>>> >
>>> >Which is EXACTLY why Protestants don't use the D-Cs. If they had
the
>>> >D-Cs, they'd have to admit claiming no justification was a heresy.
>>> >
>>> >Seriously, don't you two have anything better to do (like discuss
what
>>> >you *do* believe, perhaps) then continuing to harp on about the RCC?
>>>
>>> Nope. Don't you have anything better to do THAN (not "then")
>>> continuing to harp on about REAL (NON-Catholic ) Christianity?
>>>
>>> >This is really starting to seem like a fixation.
>>>
>>>
>>> I keep wondering why Roman Catholics keep feeling like they have to
>>> come into a non-Roman Catholic group to "defend" a "faith" that
"needs
>>> no defending".... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
>>
>>
>>Because IKHDY posts his odd brand of Protestantism in
>>alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic. He's the instigator.
>>
>>
>>Chris
>
>If he is so silly, why not ignore him? Why MUST you engage?
For nearly the selfsame reason you continue to respond to us--we think
he's as dead wrong as he can get, and we don't want him to spread his
malicious lies about our faith. You respond to us because you don't
want us to correct him.
Alberich
========
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From: Alberich <Alberich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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alt.talk.creationism,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
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Subject: Re: RCC Examined-12
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>
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 18:04:17 GMT
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On 27 Feb 2004 07:51:02 GMT, jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>x-no-archive:yes
>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:25:28 GMT, Alberich <Alberich@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>On 26 Feb 2004 22:51:53 GMT, jw <john_weatherly47<no>@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>x-no-archive:yes
>>>On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:01:56 -0800, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>(IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
>>>
>>>>RCC Examined-12
>>>>
>>>>Purgatory
>>>>
>>>>Rome teaches that when Catholics die in an unperfected state, they
must
>>>>enter an intermediate realm of punishment called "purgatory" before
being
>>>>released to heaven. Those who have ac***ulated sins which have not
been
>>>>sufficiently atoned for through penance must endure the sufferings of
>>>>purgatory until the soul is refined and God's justice has been
satisfied.
>>>>The torments of this halfway hell can vary in intensity, severity,
and
>>>>duration depending upon the guilt, impurity, lack of proper penance,
or
>>>>sorrow of the sufferer.
>>>>
>>>>Catholics are kept in fear all their lives by the prospects of going
to
>>>>this imaginary place. But Rome teaches that the period of suffering
in
>>>>purgatory can be shortened by gifts of money, prayers by the priests,
and
>>>>m*****. Catholicism also stresses that friends and relatives can help
>>>>lessen the time that loved ones remain in purgatory and even relieve
their
>>>>suffering by financing m***** on their behalf. Rome collects millions
of
>>>>dollars each year from grieving individuals who willingly pay to
alleviate
>>>>the agonies of those in purgatory.
>>>>
>>>>However, this frightening doctrine cannot find a single verse in the
>>>>entire Bible to sup****t it. Rome has had to rely on ingenious
twistings of
>>>>the Scriptures to defend this terrifying teaching, along with an
isolated
>>>>passage from the apocryphal book of II Maccabees (12:39-45).
>>>
>>>Which is EXACTLY why they use the A. If they didn't have the A, they'd
>>>have NO justification for these heresies.
>>
>>Which is EXACTLY why Protestants don't use the D-Cs. If they had the
>>D-Cs, they'd have to admit claiming no justification was a heresy.
>>
>>Seriously, don't you two have anything better to do (like discuss what
>>you *do* believe, perhaps) then continuing to harp on about the RCC?
>
>Nope. Don't you have anything better to do THAN (not "then")
>continuing to harp on about REAL (NON-Catholic ) Christianity?
Wow--you got me there, John. I mis-typed something late at night and
you *nailed* me on it. Feel better? =) And I guess that no, I don't
have something better to do than try to dispel people of heretical
notions that Satan--in the guise of the Holy Spirit--whispers into
their ears from time to time.
>>This is really starting to seem like a fixation.
>
>
>I keep wondering why Roman Catholics keep feeling like they have to
>come into a non-Roman Catholic group to "defend" a "faith" that "needs
>no defending".... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
We don't. But when people ignorant about Catholicism post their inane
drivel *in* *arc-rc*, I will defend my faith. Which part of that is
so hard to understand? I will use smaller words if need be.
>And so long as Roman Catholics come into the baptist group to
>preach/proselytize/defend Roman Catholic heresies
>(anti-/contra-Biblical dogma), I and other born-agains will defend the
>true Gospel of the Christ. Someone has to.
Fine. But consider that your very concept of "Born Again" (as *you*
view it) is heretical. So where does that leave you, Kemosabe?
>You guys keep calling me a liar for pointing out Rome's many errors,
|
