>> The term "increase" found here and elsewhere concerning the wealth,
material
>> posession, or estimate of worth, is translated from
>>
>> Strongs #8393, and it is defined there as: "income, i.e. produce
(literally
>> or figuratively):--fruit, gain, increase, revenue."
>>
>> Most reading, I am sure, understand that as in many primitive
economies
>> today, currency is only a place holder for material substance. We
consider
>> the gold standard, and silver certificates of old (where one greenback
was,
>> some time ago, able to redeem a certain amount of silver). Other
enconomies
>> clearly have always entertained trade in substance, that is, horses,
grain,
>> pottery, etc etc.
>>
>> The dichotomy you are attempting to draw between currency and that
which it
>> can redeem is utterly fraudulent, and silly.
>>
>> Clearly, even in an agrarian society, a potter can exchange the works
of his
>> hands for wheat or corn, and the farmer can obtain shoes, if it
happens that
>> there is a cobbler, by bringing him a pig for slaughter, all according
to
>> the measure of the economy. Is a PENNY, or SHEKLE ever divorced from
the
>> reality of "increase"? Of course not!
>>
>> Coinage and other currency is nothing more than the place holder for
>> substance of wealth, useful for representing cows, doves, bicycles,
and so
>> on.
>>
>> While you WILL find that people tithed in agricultural materials,
there is
>> simply NO basis for asserting that it could not be, and was not, and
IS not
>> represented temo****arilly in coin.
>>
>> Now, your failure to distinguish between GARBAGE and something that
coinage
>> WOULD redeem - that is truly silly.
>>
>>
>That is why there were money changers in the temple and Jesus drove them
>from the temple because they were using the temple as a stock yard for
>buying animals and grains and other products.
The issue was NOT that the merchants were exchanging money and selling
animals. That was just fine. They were doing it in the outer
courtyard, which was set up for that precise purpose. The issue was
that they were using two sets of scales, one for the rich, and one for
the poor, cheating EVERYONE. Jesus didn't say, "You are selling money
and animals! You can't do that!" He said "You have turned my house of
wor****p into a "Den of thieves." They were cheating and stealing and
swindling.
>And they were doing it as dishonest as possible.
Correct. Using two sets of scales. If you look up scales in the Old
Testament, God hates "two different sets of scales" which are designed
for defrauding the innocent.
>Just like the so Called churches are doing today to fleece the flocks.
SOME, not all. All the churches I've been involved with have
professional accountants, church members, who keep the elders honest.
Billy Graham has independent accountants and auditors who keep the
books/business clean. I won't speak for others.
Blanket statements such as yours indicate prejudice (ignorance) and
hatred of the Godly. There ARE Godly preachers and Godly churches. A
prime example is the world famous Dr. John D. MacArthur, Grace
Community Church, Sun Valley, CA. One of my former pastors, many would
recognize, Dr. Jess C. Moody, impeccably honest.
John W
>
>
>Misty,
*******************************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.prayer,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
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Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <4pvokv0vrariplfp6v5cavrmaubcl53dc5@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:20:49 -0400, "David Vestal"
<someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:707nkvcpg1qqesngpp6bb3jn9oktij94ib@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:26:51 -0700, "Mike Bugal"
>> <hcm1NOS...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> >"David Vestal" <someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >news:bifn5d$8qc3q$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> I don't mean to be rude, but did you have a point about the
biblical
>necessity
>> >> or lack thereof of tithing?
>> >>
>> >
>> >Simply put: New Testament model is steward****p... not tithing.
>> >
>> Not true.
>>
>> Jesus taught tithing.
>
>And He did so when speaking to persons for whom tithing was still a
commandment.
>That is, people who were under the Old Covenant.
Why would it have even been mentioned if it were not for us today? The
apostles were very clear that MUCH was said and done that was not
recorded. Why bother to record a story about tithing that didn't apply
to us? You dismiss Jesus' words because you don't wish to tithe. Suit
yourself; just don't call it Christian or scriptural.
John W
*************************************************************************
*
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.prayer,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
n.pentecostal,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.charismatic
Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <4tvokv0gm1sloq50ujik15cb99p2ue51dd@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:17:21 -0400, "David Vestal"
<someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:sk6nkv80gnc1clf753k9a9br6rtt6r6mhm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:58:01 -0700, "Mike Bugal"
>> <hcm1NOS...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> >"David Vestal" <someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >news:bifjll$8ml98$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> "John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >> news:018mkv0ptl9kdhfegtaqp29mjcqlm09gip@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> > I know of churches today, rural churches, where the small farm
farmers
>> >> > cannot afford cash tithes, so they bring milk, cheese, eggs, and
they
>> >> > volunteer. They give a percentage / what they can afford to give,
of
>> >> > their resources, including their time and talents. What do you
think
>> >> > the building of the churches Paul founded was about? The
Christian
>> >> > members were tradesmen, and they tithed their time and skills and
>> >> > built churches.
>> >>
>> >> That's a neat story, but you didn't get it from the Bible. I don't
even
>> >> particularly doubt it,
>> >
>> >I'm glad you don't, David, because I minister at a church in NE
Missouri in a
>> >town of 185 people (I think the dogs and cats got counted too) and
things
>like
>> >that happen all the time. The church pays us a minimal amount (we
drive 75
>miles
>> >to get there)and every once in a while we'll get venison, peaches,
tomatoes
>and
>> >other produce from the folks. Then there are slightly larger
communities
>(though
>> >not much bigger) where the church pays a salary of $25,000 or more
and has a
>> >parsonage. It just depends on what type of farming or ranching is
being done
>in
>> >the area. But the folks in Steffenville need ministering to just as
much as
>the
>> >folks in Caruthersville and are just as willing to sup****t the
work... they
>just
>> >have differing means of doing so. Both are being wise stewards of the
Lord's
>> >resources... which is the New Testament concept for making that
provision.
>>
>> And one thing that has NOT been said is this: you may disagree with
>> ME, but just hop in your car and drive out to the nearest rural
>> church, in the middle of a farming community. Ask the pastor or a
>> deacon how many of the members give cash and how many give produce, be
>> it eggs, milk, cheese, etc.?
>>
>> He'll tell you both. Meaning, it's not something I made up, or
>> invented, this tithe thing. Millions of rural Christians are living
>> proof that this teaching is widespread and that MILLIONS believe it's
>> right out of the Bible as do I.
>>
>> Jesus said to the Pharisees, you tithe your spices and your ***min,
>> yet you neglect mercy and justice. You should have taken care of the
>> latter (mercy and justice) without neglecting the former (the tithe).
>> He ENDORSED the tithe.
>>
>> If you don't believe in tithing, argue with Jesus. And evidently, the
>> churches were listening, because Paul said VERY little about tithing
>> (let each of you set aside a ****tion on Sunday, so that when I come,
>> the money will be ready and I won't have to wait for you to collect.)
>>
>> The tithe/giving was expected, and instructions were given for how it
>> was to be done.
>>
>> Those who don't believe in tithing their money, their talents, and
>> their time, don't believe the Bible, or don't know it well enough to
>> comment.
>
>I never doubted the story, but the story has absolutely no relevance to
the
>necessity of or commandment of tithing in the New Testament church.
There is no
>such commandment.
Fine. Suit yourself. So don't honor God with your money and see how
blessed your money becomes.
And why would you NOT want to tithe? By the same reasoning, you need
not bother with ***ual purity, and you can lie, cheat, steal, commit
fornication, adultery, and blasphemy. There are no laws today.
John W
***********************************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <j70pkvsa1jcp1boi4k4rdok5pj2q3g7r63@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:14:52 -0400, "David Vestal"
<someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:5g6nkv0kl8ojda7g3ieg8gjt4fo5s7nv8t@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:27:05 -0400, "David Vestal"
>> <someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> >"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >news:018mkv0ptl9kdhfegtaqp29mjcqlm09gip@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:57 -0700, "Fletis Humplebacker" <!>
wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Fred Young" <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >news:fkqkkvk4f9i4nbtb8lorm68a82ll6oqtsh@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> Tithing
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. Dealing with the pre-Mosaic occurrences. Twice before the
Mosaic
>> >> >> law tithing is mentioned in the Bible as a system of taxation,
related
>> >> >> also to spiritual life. The first is where Abraham gave a tenth
of the
>> >> >> best part of the spoils to Melchizedek - Genesis 14:20; Hebrews
7:2,6.
>> >> >> The second was where Jacob, after his vision at Bethel,
consecrated
>> >> >> ten per cent of his property to God if he returned home safely.
Why
>> >> >> did he do that? Because Jacob was far from home, and home was
the
>> >> >> place where he paid his taxes. So he said, "All right God, I'm
going
>> >> >> to bribe you to get me home. I'll pay my taxes now, instead of
when I
>> >> >> get home."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2. Definition. A tithe was ten per cent of Jewish income tax
where
>> >> >> both the unbeliever and the believer paid. Abraham as a believer
>> >> >> became a citizen of Melchizedek's kingdom and that's why he paid
ten
>> >> >> per cent.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 3. The categories of tithing in Israel. a) To the Levites went
ten per
>> >> >> cent for the maintenance and sustenance of the Levitical
priesthood -
>> >> >> Numbers 18:20-21, 24; Hebrews 7:5,9. This may seem to authorise
a
>> >> >> national church. It does not. You must remember that in the
previous
>> >> >> dispensation it was the Levitical priesthood who handled all of
the
>> >> >> national holidays. They offered all the sacrifices at every one
of the
>> >> >> special feasts as well as the feast of the trumpets, on the
first day
>> >> >> of each month. b) A tenth was to be used for the sacred feasts
and
>> >> >> sacrifices - Deuteronomy 12:17-19; 14:22-27. Every third year
there
>> >> >> was a third ten per cent taxation. This was for a charity tax
for the
>> >> >> poor of the land (This was not welfare, it was charity) -
Deuteronomy
>> >> >> 14:28,29.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 4. Gospel references - Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42, are
illustrative of
>> >> >> references to tithing in the Gospels. Whenever you find a
reference to
>> >> >> tithing in the Gospels it illustrates the distortion of the law
>> >> >> through legalism. The references there all have to do with the
>> >> >> condemnation of legalism. The Talmud extension of the Mosaic law
>> >> >> distorted the entire concept of tithing. The Pharisees at the
time of
>> >> >> our Lord extended it to the minutest details of life not
required by
>> >> >> the Mosaic law.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 5. Tithing is also mentioned in connection with an income tax
evasion
>> >> >> - Leviticus 27:30-34. This passage forbids the substituting of
one
>> >> >> animal for another in the payment of tax. The penalty was one
fifth
>> >> >> more of your income.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 6. The perpetuation of the income tax principle is also
mentioned in
>> >> >> Matthew 22:17-21; Mark 12:13-17 - the concept that income tax is
a
>> >> >> bona fide function.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 7. Tithing is not a part of New Testament giving, it has nothing
to do
>> >> >> with the Church Age. In 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 tithing has never
been
>> >> >> spiritual giving at all in the Church Age. The amount that you
give to
>> >> >> the local church is strictly between you and the Lord, it does
not
>> >> >> have to be ten per cent, more or less. Giving is the expression
of
>> >> >> wor****p of the royal priesthood and therefore is not related
with
>> >> >> tithing, and never can be. Why? Because while the priesthood can
>> >> >> receive ten per cent it can never give ten per cent to anyone.
The
>> >> >> royal priesthood is the highest of all priesthoods and as such
it
>> >> >> never deals in ten per cent. 2 Corinthians chapters 8 & 9 has a
>> >> >> detailed dissertation on giving for the royal priesthood.
Tithing is
>> >> >> never mentioned as related to giving in this dispensation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tithing is not spiritual giving in the Old Testament. Spiritual
giving
>> >> >> is limited to believers only and tithing was a ten per cent
income tax
>> >> >> under the Mosaic Law, Codex number three, which deals with the
laws of
>> >> >> divine establishment.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Actually there were three ten per cent taxes under the ten
percent
>> >> >> rule of income tax in the Mosaic Law. First there was the tithe
or ten
>> >> >> percent income tax for all Jewish citizens, believers and
unbelievers,
>> >> >> for the maintenance of the Levites - Numbers 18:21,24. The
second ten
>> >> >> per cent income tax from all Jewish citizens was to defray the
cost of
>> >> >> the feasts and sacrifices - Deuteronomy 14:22-24. And the third
ten
>> >> >> per cent or tithe, income tax from all Jewish citizens,
believers and
>> >> >> unbelievers, was to be paid every third year for the relief of
the
>> >> >> poor in the land - Deuteronomy 14:28,29 [charity and not
socialism].
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Remember that the tithe is defined in the scripture as a ten per
cent
>> >> >> income tax for the citizens of Israel only, both believers and
>> >> >> unbelievers. Because it included unbelievers and because it was
a tax
>> >> >> it is not regarded as spiritual giving, it is regarded as an
>> >> >> obligation called income tax. Spiritual giving is presented in
the
>> >> >> Mosaic Law under one word - "offerings." Offerings were for
believers
>> >> >> only.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the time of apostasy in Israel the citizens, both the
believers and
>> >> >> unbelievers, failed to pay their taxes and believers were not
>> >> >> fulfilling their obligation in spiritual giving as well - cf.
Malachi
>> >> >> 3:8.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >When did tithes include money in the OT era?
>> >>
>> >> The point was, and is, if you are tithing 1/10th of your spices,
why
>> >> would you NOT tithe your money and time?
>> >>
>> >> You are to tithe your resources.
>> >
>> >That's not biblical. In fact, biblically speaking, we should NOT do
so,
>since
>> >in the OT they certainly weren't commanded to tithe time or money.
Those
>things
>> >did exist back then, you know. However, they tithed only on their
crops.
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I know of churches today, rural churches, where the small farm
farmers
>> >> cannot afford cash tithes, so they bring milk, cheese, eggs, and
they
>> >> volunteer. They give a percentage / what they can afford to give,
of
>> >> their resources, including their time and talents. What do you
think
>> >> the building of the churches Paul founded was about? The Christian
>> >> members were tradesmen, and they tithed their time and skills and
>> >> built churches.
>> >
>> >That's a neat story, but you didn't get it from the Bible. I don't
even
>> >particularly doubt it, but you're trying to add it to scripture when
it isn't
>> >there. Furthermore, even assuming it's true (which isn't necessarily
so),
>that
>> >creates no commandment for us. Stop adding to the Bible.
>>
>> That you mis-interpret and misread the Bible AND my comments does NOT
>> equal that I "add" to the Bible. I add nothing. It's a difference of
>> POV and interpretation. And your attitude does NOT elicit a response.
>
>You never defend your unbiblical positions, John, and my attitude is not
at all
>unreasonable. If you actually think that tithing is necessary, why
don't you
>respond to my rebuttal to Mark's lengthy post on the subject? Since I
was
>responding to someone else, you could hardy pule about my "attitude" in
that
>post.
You have the right to your POV, as do I. And I stand by it. I also
have stated MANY times that I present my view of scripture; I do not
debate it endlessly; and when you and others decide to tear it down
piece by piece, I withdraw. I do not believe in debating. You accept
it as scriptural or you do not; to debate is in my mind a waste of
time; furthermore you prove my point by not indicating ANY receptivity
to other POVs.
IOW, MY mind could be changed; I don't perceive that yours could.
Therefore, it would be one-sided. But I personally believe that
debating scripture is sin.
John W
>
*************************************************************************
********
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>
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Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <cd0pkv8b2p8v7077fv2mmmfa8jvlf9li1d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On 26 Aug 2003 07:30:15 -0700, shaolinninji...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Sensei
Shaolin) wrote:
>John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message news:
<018mkv0ptl9kdhfegtaqp29mjcqlm09gip@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>...
>> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:57 -0700, "Fletis Humplebacker" <!> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Fred Young" <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:fkqkkvk4f9i4nbtb8lorm68a82ll6oqtsh@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> Tithing
>> >>
>> >> 1. Dealing with the pre-Mosaic occurrences. Twice before the Mosaic
>> >> law tithing is mentioned in the Bible as a system of taxation,
related
>> >> also to spiritual life. The first is where Abraham gave a tenth of
the
>> >> best part of the spoils to Melchizedek - Genesis 14:20; Hebrews
7:2,6.
>> >> The second was where Jacob, after his vision at Bethel, consecrated
>> >> ten per cent of his property to God if he returned home safely. Why
>> >> did he do that? Because Jacob was far from home, and home was the
>> >> place where he paid his taxes. So he said, "All right God, I'm
going
>> >> to bribe you to get me home. I'll pay my taxes now, instead of when
I
>> >> get home."
>> >>
>> >> 2. Definition. A tithe was ten per cent of Jewish income tax where
>> >> both the unbeliever and the believer paid. Abraham as a believer
>> >> became a citizen of Melchizedek's kingdom and that's why he paid
ten
>> >> per cent.
>> >>
>> >> 3. The categories of tithing in Israel. a) To the Levites went ten
per
>> >> cent for the maintenance and sustenance of the Levitical priesthood
-
>> >> Numbers 18:20-21, 24; Hebrews 7:5,9. This may seem to authorise a
>> >> national church. It does not. You must remember that in the
previous
>> >> dispensation it was the Levitical priesthood who handled all of the
>> >> national holidays. They offered all the sacrifices at every one of
the
>> >> special feasts as well as the feast of the trumpets, on the first
day
>> >> of each month. b) A tenth was to be used for the sacred feasts and
>> >> sacrifices - Deuteronomy 12:17-19; 14:22-27. Every third year there
>> >> was a third ten per cent taxation. This was for a charity tax for
the
>> >> poor of the land (This was not welfare, it was charity) -
Deuteronomy
>> >> 14:28,29.
>> >>
>> >> 4. Gospel references - Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42, are illustrative
of
>> >> references to tithing in the Gospels. Whenever you find a reference
to
>> >> tithing in the Gospels it illustrates the distortion of the law
>> >> through legalism. The references there all have to do with the
>> >> condemnation of legalism. The Talmud extension of the Mosaic law
>> >> distorted the entire concept of tithing. The Pharisees at the time
of
>> >> our Lord extended it to the minutest details of life not required
by
>> >> the Mosaic law.
>> >>
>> >> 5. Tithing is also mentioned in connection with an income tax
evasion
>> >> - Leviticus 27:30-34. This passage forbids the substituting of one
>> >> animal for another in the payment of tax. The penalty was one fifth
>> >> more of your income.
>> >>
>> >> 6. The perpetuation of the income tax principle is also mentioned
in
>> >> Matthew 22:17-21; Mark 12:13-17 - the concept that income tax is a
>> >> bona fide function.
>> >>
>> >> 7. Tithing is not a part of New Testament giving, it has nothing to
do
>> >> with the Church Age. In 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 tithing has never been
>> >> spiritual giving at all in the Church Age. The amount that you give
to
>> >> the local church is strictly between you and the Lord, it does not
>> >> have to be ten per cent, more or less. Giving is the expression of
>> >> wor****p of the royal priesthood and therefore is not related with
>> >> tithing, and never can be. Why? Because while the priesthood can
>> >> receive ten per cent it can never give ten per cent to anyone. The
>> >> royal priesthood is the highest of all priesthoods and as such it
>> >> never deals in ten per cent. 2 Corinthians chapters 8 & 9 has a
>> >> detailed dissertation on giving for the royal priesthood. Tithing
is
>> >> never mentioned as related to giving in this dispensation.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Tithing is not spiritual giving in the Old Testament. Spiritual
giving
>> >> is limited to believers only and tithing was a ten per cent income
tax
>> >> under the Mosaic Law, Codex number three, which deals with the laws
of
>> >> divine establishment.
>> >>
>> >> Actually there were three ten per cent taxes under the ten percent
>> >> rule of income tax in the Mosaic Law. First there was the tithe or
ten
>> >> percent income tax for all Jewish citizens, believers and
unbelievers,
>> >> for the maintenance of the Levites - Numbers 18:21,24. The second
ten
>> >> per cent income tax from all Jewish citizens was to defray the cost
of
>> >> the feasts and sacrifices - Deuteronomy 14:22-24. And the third ten
>> >> per cent or tithe, income tax from all Jewish citizens, believers
and
>> >> unbelievers, was to be paid every third year for the relief of the
>> >> poor in the land - Deuteronomy 14:28,29 [charity and not
socialism].
>> >>
>> >> Remember that the tithe is defined in the scripture as a ten per
cent
>> >> income tax for the citizens of Israel only, both believers and
>> >> unbelievers. Because it included unbelievers and because it was a
tax
>> >> it is not regarded as spiritual giving, it is regarded as an
>> >> obligation called income tax. Spiritual giving is presented in the
>> >> Mosaic Law under one word - "offerings." Offerings were for
believers
>> >> only.
>> >>
>> >> In the time of apostasy in Israel the citizens, both the believers
and
>> >> unbelievers, failed to pay their taxes and believers were not
>> >> fulfilling their obligation in spiritual giving as well - cf.
Malachi
>> >> 3:8.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >When did tithes include money in the OT era?
>>
>> The point was, and is, if you are tithing 1/10th of your spices, why
>> would you NOT tithe your money and time?
>
>Because the commands on what to tithe, how to tithe, when to tithe,
>and who to tithe to are very specific.
Old Testament Phariseeism. Do you wor****p on Saturday? What foods do
you avoid? Do you refuse to do any work including driving your car, on
Sabbath? Do you wear EXACTLY the correct kinds of cloth on your body
(no mixes, no blended fabrics)? Do you eat ****k products? Do you
consume blood? (prime rib au jus?)
If you don't follow all those laws, I ask you again, Jesus taught
tithing. What stops you from tithing your money? It's a gift of love.
John W
Deuteronomy 4:2 and Proverbs
>30:6 warns us about adding or taking away from the commands of the
>Lord.
I have not said, in John Weatherly 13:12, it says...
I am talking about an interpretation. Paul said, "some eat meat and
think nothing about it; to another, meat is offensive. Some wor****p on
Sabbath and observe other holidays; others see all days as equal. Let
each of you be convinced in his own mind."
IOW, decide how you are going to handle a certain issue, find
scripture that you believe sup****ts your POV, and stick with it.
God commanded the tithe, and his commands never included money.
> To add money to the list would be adding to the commands of the Lord.
I didn't say we are to "add to the list." I said, "Why would you tithe
your time and your talents, and your produce, and yet NOT thank Him
for your generous salary with a percentage of that as well? You are
calling me a legalist. I think it is YOU who are following the letter
and not the spirit.
>
>> You are to tithe your resources.
>
>If in reference to the OT tithe commands, this would be accurate to an
>extent.
>
Then we part company here. I won't debate. I have presented what I
think is clear scripture. You are looking for loopholes. "Be convinced
in your own mind." I am.
John W
>> I know of churches today, rural churches, where the small farm farmers
>> cannot afford cash tithes, so they bring milk, cheese, eggs, and they
>> volunteer.
>
>This is a prime example of how the Israelites tithed! Most of the
>tithe requirements were agricultural products because the Israelites
>were commanded to EAT the tithe (Deut. 14).
>
>> They give a percentage / what they can afford to give, of
>> their resources, including their time and talents. What do you think
>> the building of the churches Paul founded was about?
>
>Cheerful giving, not cheerful tithe-paying!
>
>> The Christian
>> members were tradesmen, and they tithed their time and skills and
>> built churches.
>
>Can you show us the scripture that shows Christians tithed anything,
>much less their time???
****************************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <jp0pkvk62msb9t58pdntk6sk381acd782o@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:49:17 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On 26 Aug 2003 07:30:15 -0700, shaolinninji...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Sensei
>Shaolin) wrote:
>
>>> They give a percentage / what they can afford to give, of
>>> their resources, including their time and talents. What do you think
>>> the building of the churches Paul founded was about?
>>
>>Cheerful giving, not cheerful tithe-paying!
>
>That is correct.
And I am saying "to each his own interpretation. If it pleases you to
"rob God" of His tithe, go for it.
John W
******************************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <3r0pkvo41jcj3itmhb7471lm8et0fpe52h@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:22:23 -0400, "David Vestal"
<someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:e77nkv42gqf40d27ucel901nsa5a4628ao@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:49:17 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 26 Aug 2003 07:30:15 -0700, shaolinninji...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Sensei
>> >Shaolin) wrote:
>> >
>> >>> They give a percentage / what they can afford to give, of
>> >>> their resources, including their time and talents. What do you
think
>> >>> the building of the churches Paul founded was about?
>> >>
>> >>Cheerful giving, not cheerful tithe-paying!
>>
>> Jesus endorsed the tithe.
>>
>> MT 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
>> hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and ***min.
>> But you have neglected the more im****tant matters of the law--justice,
>> mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without
>> neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but
>> swallow a camel.
>
>
>Old Covenant. Passe.
Jesus said it in the NT. That's the NEW Covenant. Otherwise, disregard
ALL the commandments He gave us before He was crucified.
Do NOT love one another as He loved us. Do NOT love God with all your
heart, mind, and soul. Those commands were given BEFORE He was
crucified.
And that is a dangerous game. You then presume that you can disregard
Paul as well. You are a spiritual anarchist.
John W
*********************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <bv0pkvsepe285878hl5mq6i8kukk7f2m0r@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:21:50 -0400, "David Vestal"
<someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:057nkvoghtveu3c2fqruhh9oqjatck3ahl@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On 26 Aug 2003 07:30:15 -0700, shaolinninji...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Sensei
>> Shaolin) wrote:
>>
>> >John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:<018mkv0ptl9kdhfegtaqp29mjcqlm09gip@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>...
>> >> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:57 -0700, "Fletis Humplebacker" <!>
wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Fred Young" <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:fkqkkvk4f9i4nbtb8lorm68a82ll6oqtsh@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> Tithing
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. Dealing with the pre-Mosaic occurrences. Twice before the
Mosaic
>> >> >> law tithing is mentioned in the Bible as a system of taxation,
related
>> >> >> also to spiritual life. The first is where Abraham gave a tenth
of the
>> >> >> best part of the spoils to Melchizedek - Genesis 14:20; Hebrews
7:2,6.
>> >> >> The second was where Jacob, after his vision at Bethel,
consecrated
>> >> >> ten per cent of his property to God if he returned home safely.
Why
>> >> >> did he do that? Because Jacob was far from home, and home was
the
>> >> >> place where he paid his taxes. So he said, "All right God, I'm
going
>> >> >> to bribe you to get me home. I'll pay my taxes now, instead of
when I
>> >> >> get home."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2. Definition. A tithe was ten per cent of Jewish income tax
where
>> >> >> both the unbeliever and the believer paid. Abraham as a believer
>> >> >> became a citizen of Melchizedek's kingdom and that's why he paid
ten
>> >> >> per cent.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 3. The categories of tithing in Israel. a) To the Levites went
ten per
>> >> >> cent for the maintenance and sustenance of the Levitical
priesthood -
>> >> >> Numbers 18:20-21, 24; Hebrews 7:5,9. This may seem to authorise
a
>> >> >> national church. It does not. You must remember that in the
previous
>> >> >> dispensation it was the Levitical priesthood who handled all of
the
>> >> >> national holidays. They offered all the sacrifices at every one
of the
>> >> >> special feasts as well as the feast of the trumpets, on the
first day
>> >> >> of each month. b) A tenth was to be used for the sacred feasts
and
>> >> >> sacrifices - Deuteronomy 12:17-19; 14:22-27. Every third year
there
>> >> >> was a third ten per cent taxation. This was for a charity tax
for the
>> >> >> poor of the land (This was not welfare, it was charity) -
Deuteronomy
>> >> >> 14:28,29.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 4. Gospel references - Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42, are
illustrative of
>> >> >> references to tithing in the Gospels. Whenever you find a
reference to
>> >> >> tithing in the Gospels it illustrates the distortion of the law
>> >> >> through legalism. The references there all have to do with the
>> >> >> condemnation of legalism. The Talmud extension of the Mosaic law
>> >> >> distorted the entire concept of tithing. The Pharisees at the
time of
>> >> >> our Lord extended it to the minutest details of life not
required by
>> >> >> the Mosaic law.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 5. Tithing is also mentioned in connection with an income tax
evasion
>> >> >> - Leviticus 27:30-34. This passage forbids the substituting of
one
>> >> >> animal for another in the payment of tax. The penalty was one
fifth
>> >> >> more of your income.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 6. The perpetuation of the income tax principle is also
mentioned in
>> >> >> Matthew 22:17-21; Mark 12:13-17 - the concept that income tax is
a
>> >> >> bona fide function.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 7. Tithing is not a part of New Testament giving, it has nothing
to do
>> >> >> with the Church Age. In 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 tithing has never
been
>> >> >> spiritual giving at all in the Church Age. The amount that you
give to
>> >> >> the local church is strictly between you and the Lord, it does
not
>> >> >> have to be ten per cent, more or less. Giving is the expression
of
>> >> >> wor****p of the royal priesthood and therefore is not related
with
>> >> >> tithing, and never can be. Why? Because while the priesthood can
>> >> >> receive ten per cent it can never give ten per cent to anyone.
The
>> >> >> royal priesthood is the highest of all priesthoods and as such
it
>> >> >> never deals in ten per cent. 2 Corinthians chapters 8 & 9 has a
>> >> >> detailed dissertation on giving for the royal priesthood.
Tithing is
>> >> >> never mentioned as related to giving in this dispensation.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tithing is not spiritual giving in the Old Testament. Spiritual
giving
>> >> >> is limited to believers only and tithing was a ten per cent
income tax
>> >> >> under the Mosaic Law, Codex number three, which deals with the
laws of
>> >> >> divine establishment.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Actually there were three ten per cent taxes under the ten
percent
>> >> >> rule of income tax in the Mosaic Law. First there was the tithe
or ten
>> >> >> percent income tax for all Jewish citizens, believers and
unbelievers,
>> >> >> for the maintenance of the Levites - Numbers 18:21,24. The
second ten
>> >> >> per cent income tax from all Jewish citizens was to defray the
cost of
>> >> >> the feasts and sacrifices - Deuteronomy 14:22-24. And the third
ten
>> >> >> per cent or tithe, income tax from all Jewish citizens,
believers and
>> >> >> unbelievers, was to be paid every third year for the relief of
the
>> >> >> poor in the land - Deuteronomy 14:28,29 [charity and not
socialism].
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Remember that the tithe is defined in the scripture as a ten per
cent
>> >> >> income tax for the citizens of Israel only, both believers and
>> >> >> unbelievers. Because it included unbelievers and because it was
a tax
>> >> >> it is not regarded as spiritual giving, it is regarded as an
>> >> >> obligation called income tax. Spiritual giving is presented in
the
>> >> >> Mosaic Law under one word - "offerings." Offerings were for
believers
>> >> >> only.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the time of apostasy in Israel the citizens, both the
believers and
>> >> >> unbelievers, failed to pay their taxes and believers were not
>> >> >> fulfilling their obligation in spiritual giving as well - cf.
Malachi
>> >> >> 3:8.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >When did tithes include money in the OT era?
>> >>
>> >> The point was, and is, if you are tithing 1/10th of your spices,
why
>> >> would you NOT tithe your money and time?
>> >
>> >Because the commands on what to tithe, how to tithe, when to tithe,
>> >and who to tithe to are very specific. Deuteronomy 4:2 and Proverbs
>> >30:6 warns us about adding or taking away from the commands of the
>> >Lord. God commanded the tithe, and his commands never included
money.
>> > To add money to the list would be adding to the commands of the
Lord.
>>
>> Jesus also modified law. And why would we tithe our produce and our
>> time and resources and talents and NOT our money? Why would you hold
>> back? Is God not worthy of your money?
>
>To put it a different way, why would the children of Israel not tithe
their
>money or time? Because they were not commanded to do so. Not, of
course, that
>these commandments have any relevance in the New Testament church.
>
If you don't wish to be a good steward of your resources, have it your
way.
God bless,
John W
********************************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <re1pkvo4lik7lffnn8o9so5bti7kmabcft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:45:46 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On 26 Aug 2003 09:06:54 GMT, John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>The point was, and is, if you are tithing 1/10th of your spices, why
>>would you NOT tithe your money and time?
>>
>>You are to tithe your resources.
>
>Nowhere are we told to tithe our resources. New Testament giving and
>tithing are totally different.
Why would Jesus give instructions that we may feel free to disregard?
Nevertheless, I will not continue to debate with those who are hard of
heart. I personally believe that debating scripture with the hard of
heart is sin on MY part.
John W
****************************************************************
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>
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Subject: Re: Tithing
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>
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:56:52 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On 26 Aug 2003 17:35:17 GMT, John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:45:46 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 26 Aug 2003 09:06:54 GMT, John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>The point was, and is, if you are tithing 1/10th of your spices, why
>>>>would you NOT tithe your money and time?
>>>>
>>>>You are to tithe your resources.
>>>
>>>Nowhere are we told to tithe our resources. New Testament giving and
>>>tithing are totally different.
>>
>>
>> MT 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
>>hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and ***min.
>>But you have neglected the more im****tant matters of the law--justice,
>>mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without
>>neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but
>>swallow a camel.
>
>That was directed toward the religious leaders of Israel under the
>Mosaic alw before the Church began. It is not for us today.
Jesus gave us NUMEROUS commandments before He was crucified: "Love God
with all your heart; love your neighbor as you love yourself; love one
another as I have loved you..."
If we can disregard the tithe, we can feel free to disregard the rest.
It is not by accident as you suggest, that those words ended up in
scripture, as scripture tells us He said and did MANY things that were
not recorded, suggesting that only the IM****TANT sayings were written
down.
Disregard His words as you wish; I will attempt to follow.
John W
*************************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.prayer,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
n.pentecostal,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.charismatic
Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <ms1pkvcflp85d139hnj4qbfm4rlqeklneu@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:55:26 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On 26 Aug 2003 17:45:06 GMT, John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:44:20 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 26 Aug 2003 09:04:00 GMT, John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's for those who are dispensationalists.
>>>
>>>Scripture cannot be rightly understood unless the dispensations are
>>>recognised.
>>>
>>For dispensationalists. And it's a narrow POV. I know too many
>>theologians who are NOT dispensationalists.
>
>Well that doesn;'t really prove anything John. There are also plenty
>that do.
>
It proves that merely you being a dispensationalist doesn't make you
correct automatically. You just changed subjects. Your point was that
only dispensationalists have it correct. I disagree.
>>>>
>>>>You quote Paul. I quote Jesus.
>>>>
>>>> MT 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
>>>>hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and ***min.
>>>>But you have neglected the more im****tant matters of the law--
justice,
>>>>mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without
>>>>neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but
>>>>swallow a camel.
>>>>
>>>>Jesus does NOT negate tithing. He merely uses tithing to reaffirm the
>>>>obligation, and to point out that the Pharisees insist on the tithe
>>>>yet neglect mercy, justice, and faithfulness.
>>
>>>Of course, because the Jews were under the law. The church is not
>>>under the law.
We are under the New Covenant. "If you love me, obey me."
"A NEW COMMANDMENT I give you..."
And I will not debate; that's one of MY rules. 1 John Weatherly 1:15
John W
>>
>>Virtually everything Jesus taught while He was here was for
>>Christians.
>
>Well that has to be proved from scripture. Quoting scripture out of
>context does not prove the point.
>
>>This was demonstrated to Peter in Acts 10 in verses
>>>9-16. The Jews were forbidden under the law to eat "unclean" food. But
>>>in Acts 10 Peter is told to eat.
>>
>>Jesus declared all food clean.
>
>Where?
>
>>>>>
>>>>Jesus DID endorse the tithe.
>>>
>>>To the Jews, before the church began on the day of Pentecost, when
>>>Israel was still under the Mosaic law.
>>
>>Israel ceased to be under the Mosaic/Levitial law the day Christ began
>>His ministry,
>
>There's absolutely no scriptural suppirt for that John.
>
>>or He would not have demonstrated the end of the Old Law
>>by breaking it so often.
>
>He never broke it once, or He could not have been the saviour.
>Breaking the Mosaic law resulted in condemnation, always.
>
>He said Himself: "I am come to fulfil it."
>
>>>
>>>So what you are saying in effect is that we are still under the Mosaic
>>>law, the Church began before Pentecost, we are still under the
>>>Levitical priesthood, the Abrahamic covenant, the Palestinian
>>>covenant, the Davidic, covenant, and the new covenant to Israel as
>>>well as the new covenant to the church?
>>
>>I don't know how you came to THAT conclusion. When Paul said "the law
>>was nailed to the cross," he meant the Old Law, OBVIOUSLY, since Jesus
>>gave us roughly half-a-dozen more NEW laws while He was here.
>
>Ah! But we are talking about the Mosaic law.
>
>>Paul and
>>the Council added several more. (I've never counted; that might make a
>>good study). Jesus told the apostles/disciples, " I give you a NEW
>>commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you." He
>>reiterated some of the Old Law, (the 1st Commandment, for example) and
>>He gave us new ones. One of the most famous of His new
>>laws/commandments was "Go into all the world..." often called The
>>Great Commission.
>
>These were not the Mosaic law, they were mandates to believers.
>
>>>The period of Jesus' ministry was under the Mosaic law; it was prior
>>>to the church.
>>
>>Not so. The church began with the calling the 12.
>
>No scriptural evidence for that.
>
>>They were the 1st
>>believers other than His parents. And so Jesus had 3 1/2 years to
>>declare a number of new laws.
>
>You means there were NO believers in Israel? That's the first time
>I've ever heard that. What about John the Baptist? What about
>Elizabeth? What about Zacharias? etc. There always was a remnant of
>believers in Israel.
>
>I think your comments are without any scriptural sup****t.
>
>>One was "do not hurt children."
>
>You call that a law?
>
>>>
>>>To say that have to tithe today is saying that we are still under the
>>>Mosaic law, and the Mosaic law was given to Israel only: Exodus 19:3;
>>>Leviticus 26:46; Romans 3:19; 9:4.
>>
>>By YOUR interpretation. I simply follow the commandments of Jesus.
>>>
>>>The Christian is not under the Mosaic law: Acts 15:5, 24; Galatians
>>>2:19; Romans 6:14.
>>
>>Agreed, Tithing, however, was updated from the Old Testament to the
>>New.
>
>No scriptural sup****t for that.
>
>>SOME of the Old Testament laws WERE carried over, and remain in
>>effect today. Otherwise, what do you call the 10 Commandments? 9 of
>>the 10 remain in effect. Do you know which of the 10 is NOT in effect
>>today?
>
>
>The Mosaic Law is divided into three parts. In the English translation
>they are called the Decalogue, the Ordinances, and the Judgments.
>
>1. Codex one is the Ten Commandments, or the Decalogue.
>
>a. This is the freedom code. These commandments form the basis for the
>heritage of Israel's freedom. The Ten Commandments define freedom in
>terms of human activity. They are addressed to believers and
>unbelievers with the exception of wor****p of God.
>
>b. Human freedom is described in terms of the laws of divine
>establishment. There can be no freedom without morality which can be
>fulfilled by both believers and unbelievers.
>
>c. The Ten Commandments define human freedom in terms of morality,
>privacy, property, life, and authority in general. The Ten
>Commandments also define human freedom under two categories:
>relation****p with God and relation****p and interaction with people.
>
>d. While some sins are mentioned in the Ten Commandments, its purpose
>is not to define sin. The sins mentioned are intrusions upon privacy,
>property, and freedom.
>
>e. Therefore, human freedom has something which is the guardian of
>freedom - authority. Human freedom must have authority, and this
>authority is defined in two areas: volition as the basic authority in
>life, and establishment authority summarized by the Ten Commandments,
>Ex 20:1-17.
>
>f. All of the rights of a group of people must be defined in terms of
>personal authority. Everyone is responsible in the framework of
>freedom to follow establishment rules. When these rules are violated,
>we call it crime. Punishment is described in the Law. Criminals have
>the right to use their own free will to recognize these rights and
>principles. Other factors include good manners, thoughtfulness of
>others, and regard for women.
>
>g. On the other side of volition, establishment authorities are set up
>to guarantee freedom. For example, the authority of the husband over
>the wife, parents over children, and government.
>
>h. "Thou shall not" defines in a negative way what morality is.
>Morality is the system whereby freedom permeates the human race.
>Morality is a requirement for the entire human race, not just
>believers. Something much higher than morality is required for
>believers: virtue. The highest form of virtue is spiritual maturity.
>
>i. Codex one also points out to the unbeliever that he is married to
>the old sin nature and has a bad marriage.
>
>j. Mt 22:36-40 sums up the entire Law.
>
>
>>John W
*********************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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alt.christnet.prayer,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
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Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <k22pkvgkspc3m8t3a22o4piuu8a0i89dac@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:36:54 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On 26 Aug 2003 17:45:06 GMT, John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>Not so. The church began with the calling the 12. They were the 1st
>>believers other than His parents. And so Jesus had 3 1/2 years to
>>declare a number of new laws.
>
>Matthew 10:2-7
>
>2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon,
>who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee,
>and John his brother;
>3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James
>the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
>4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
>5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not
>into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans
>enter ye not:
>6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
>7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
>
>This was not the church. The church is universal. This was the
>commission to go to the "house of Israel" only and to declare that the
>Kingdom of heaven was at hand. This was the message of the kingdom
>regarding Israel only, as prophesied in the Old Testament.
>
>The Church did not begin until Pentecost.
That is YOUR opinion, and you are welcome to it. However, being free
in Christ, I disagree. The Holy Spirit was given to the disciples LONG
before Pentecost. When the apostles were indwelt to go preach the
Kingdom, that was one of the first missionary outreaches of the
church.
This was one of the issues we debated HOTLY in seminary. I alone gave
my POV. The professor, Dr. William McBirnie, said it was
"interesting," (he hadn't heard it before, I'm guessing, ) and I got
"the A for the day."
John W
John W
Israel and the Church are
>distinct. The purpose of the age of the Church is to "call out a
>people for himself" - His body, the Church, the bride of Christ.
>
>The Old testament prophets knew nothoing of the Church, it was a
>"mystery." The apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and he
>delcared the "mystery" doctrine of the Church which was never known in
>the Old Testament.
>
>The Church is different from Israel. Believers in the Old Testament
>are never said to be in union with Christ through the baptism of the
>Spirit - 1 Corinthians 12:13. They are not members of the body of
>Christ.
*********************************************************
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From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.prayer,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
n.pentecostal,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.charismatic
Subject: Re: Tithing
Message-ID: <k22pkvgkspc3m8t3a22o4piuu8a0i89dac@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:36:54 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On 26 Aug 2003 17:45:06 GMT, John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>Not so. The church began with the calling the 12. They were the 1st
>>believers other than His parents. And so Jesus had 3 1/2 years to
>>declare a number of new laws.
>
>Matthew 10:2-7
>
>2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon,
>who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee,
>and John his brother;
>3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James
>the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
>4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
>5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not
>into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans
>enter ye not:
>6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
>7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
>
>This was not the church. The church is universal. This was the
>commission to go to the "house of Israel" only and to declare that the
>Kingdom of heaven was at hand. This was the message of the kingdom
>regarding Israel only, as prophesied in the Old Testament.
>
>The Church did not begin until Pentecost.
That is YOUR opinion, and you are welcome to it. However, being free
in Christ, I disagree. The Holy Spirit was given to the disciples LONG
before Pentecost. When the apostles were indwelt to go preach the
Kingdom, that was one of the first missionary outreaches of the
church.
This was one of the issues we debated HOTLY in seminary. I alone gave
my POV. The professor, Dr. William McBirnie, said it was
"interesting," (he hadn't heard it before, I'm guessing, ) and I got
"the A for the day."
John W
John W
Israel and the Church are
>distinct. The purpose of the age of the Church is to "call out a
>people for himself" - His body, the Church, the bride of Christ.
>
>The Old testament prophets knew nothoing of the Church, it was a
>"mystery." The apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and he
>delcared the "mystery" doctrine of the Church which was never known in
>the Old Testament.
>
>The Church is different from Israel. Believers in the Old Testament
>are never said to be in union with Christ through the baptism of the
>Spirit - 1 Corinthians 12:13. They are not members of the body of
>Christ.
***********************************************************
From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.prayer,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
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Subject: Re: Tithing
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:14:13 -0400, "David Vestal"
<someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:j70pkvsa1jcp1boi4k4rdok5pj2q3g7r63@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:14:52 -0400, "David Vestal"
>> <someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >news:5g6nkv0kl8ojda7g3ieg8gjt4fo5s7nv8t@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:27:05 -0400, "David Vestal"
>> >> <someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >> >news:018mkv0ptl9kdhfegtaqp29mjcqlm09gip@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:42:57 -0700, "Fletis Humplebacker" <!>
wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"Fred Young" <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >> >news:fkqkkvk4f9i4nbtb8lorm68a82ll6oqtsh@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> >> >> Tithing
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 1. Dealing with the pre-Mosaic occurrences. Twice before the
Mosaic
>> >> >> >> law tithing is mentioned in the Bible as a system of
taxation,
>related
>> >> >> >> also to spiritual life. The first is where Abraham gave a
tenth of
>the
>> >> >> >> best part of the spoils to Melchizedek - Genesis 14:20;
Hebrews
>7:2,6.
>> >> >> >> The second was where Jacob, after his vision at Bethel,
consecrated
>> >> >> >> ten per cent of his property to God if he returned home
safely. Why
>> >> >> >> did he do that? Because Jacob was far from home, and home was
the
>> >> >> >> place where he paid his taxes. So he said, "All right God,
I'm going
>> >> >> >> to bribe you to get me home. I'll pay my taxes now, instead
of when I
>> >> >> >> get home."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 2. Definition. A tithe was ten per cent of Jewish income tax
where
>> >> >> >> both the unbeliever and the believer paid. Abraham as a
believer
>> >> >> >> became a citizen of Melchizedek's kingdom and that's why he
paid ten
>> >> >> >> per cent.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 3. The categories of tithing in Israel. a) To the Levites
went ten
>per
>> >> >> >> cent for the maintenance and sustenance of the Levitical
priesthood -
>> >> >> >> Numbers 18:20-21, 24; Hebrews 7:5,9. This may seem to
authorise a
>> >> >> >> national church. It does not. You must remember that in the
previous
>> >> >> >> dispensation it was the Levitical priesthood who handled all
of the
>> >> >> >> national holidays. They offered all the sacrifices at every
one of
>the
>> >> >> >> special feasts as well as the feast of the trumpets, on the
first day
>> >> >> >> of each month. b) A tenth was to be used for the sacred
feasts and
>> >> >> >> sacrifices - Deuteronomy 12:17-19; 14:22-27. Every third year
there
>> >> >> >> was a third ten per cent taxation. This was for a charity tax
for the
>> >> >> >> poor of the land (This was not welfare, it was charity) -
Deuteronomy
>> >> >> >> 14:28,29.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 4. Gospel references - Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42, are
illustrative of
>> >> >> >> references to tithing in the Gospels. Whenever you find a
reference
>to
>> >> >> >> tithing in the Gospels it illustrates the distortion of the
law
>> >> >> >> through legalism. The references there all have to do with
the
>> >> >> >> condemnation of legalism. The Talmud extension of the Mosaic
law
>> >> >> >> distorted the entire concept of tithing. The Pharisees at the
time of
>> >> >> >> our Lord extended it to the minutest details of life not
required by
>> >> >> >> the Mosaic law.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 5. Tithing is also mentioned in connection with an income tax
evasion
>> >> >> >> - Leviticus 27:30-34. This passage forbids the substituting
of one
>> >> >> >> animal for another in the payment of tax. The penalty was one
fifth
>> >> >> >> more of your income.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 6. The perpetuation of the income tax principle is also
mentioned in
>> >> >> >> Matthew 22:17-21; Mark 12:13-17 - the concept that income tax
is a
>> >> >> >> bona fide function.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 7. Tithing is not a part of New Testament giving, it has
nothing to
>do
>> >> >> >> with the Church Age. In 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 tithing has
never been
>> >> >> >> spiritual giving at all in the Church Age. The amount that
you give
>to
>> >> >> >> the local church is strictly between you and the Lord, it
does not
>> >> >> >> have to be ten per cent, more or less. Giving is the
expression of
>> >> >> >> wor****p of the royal priesthood and therefore is not related
with
>> >> >> >> tithing, and never can be. Why? Because while the priesthood
can
>> >> >> >> receive ten per cent it can never give ten per cent to
anyone. The
>> >> >> >> royal priesthood is the highest of all priesthoods and as
such it
>> >> >> >> never deals in ten per cent. 2 Corinthians chapters 8 & 9 has
a
>> >> >> >> detailed dissertation on giving for the royal priesthood.
Tithing is
>> >> >> >> never mentioned as related to giving in this dispensation.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Tithing is not spiritual giving in the Old Testament.
Spiritual
>giving
>> >> >> >> is limited to believers only and tithing was a ten per cent
income
>tax
>> >> >> >> under the Mosaic Law, Codex number three, which deals with
the laws
>of
>> >> >> >> divine establishment.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Actually there were three ten per cent taxes under the ten
percent
>> >> >> >> rule of income tax in the Mosaic Law. First there was the
tithe or
>ten
>> >> >> >> percent income tax for all Jewish citizens, believers and
>unbelievers,
>> >> >> >> for the maintenance of the Levites - Numbers 18:21,24. The
second ten
>> >> >> >> per cent income tax from all Jewish citizens was to defray
the cost
>of
>> >> >> >> the feasts and sacrifices - Deuteronomy 14:22-24. And the
third ten
>> >> >> >> per cent or tithe, income tax from all Jewish citizens,
believers and
>> >> >> >> unbelievers, was to be paid every third year for the relief
of the
>> >> >> >> poor in the land - Deuteronomy 14:28,29 [charity and not
socialism].
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Remember that the tithe is defined in the scripture as a ten
per cent
>> >> >> >> income tax for the citizens of Israel only, both believers
and
>> >> >> >> unbelievers. Because it included unbelievers and because it
was a tax
>> >> >> >> it is not regarded as spiritual giving, it is regarded as an
>> >> >> >> obligation called income tax. Spiritual giving is presented
in the
>> >> >> >> Mosaic Law under one word - "offerings." Offerings were for
believers
>> >> >> >> only.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In the time of apostasy in Israel the citizens, both the
believers
>and
>> >> >> >> unbelievers, failed to pay their taxes and believers were not
>> >> >> >> fulfilling their obligation in spiritual giving as well - cf.
Malachi
>> >> >> >> 3:8.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >When did tithes include money in the OT era?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The point was, and is, if you are tithing 1/10th of your spices,
why
>> >> >> would you NOT tithe your money and time?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You are to tithe your resources.
>> >> >
>> >> >That's not biblical. In fact, biblically speaking, we should NOT
do so,
>> >since
>> >> >in the OT they certainly weren't commanded to tithe time or money.
Those
>> >things
>> >> >did exist back then, you know. However, they tithed only on their
crops.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I know of churches today, rural churches, where the small farm
farmers
>> >> >> cannot afford cash tithes, so they bring milk, cheese, eggs, and
they
>> >> >> volunteer. They give a percentage / what they can afford to
give, of
>> >> >> their resources, including their time and talents. What do you
think
>> >> >> the building of the churches Paul founded was about? The
Christian
>> >> >> members were tradesmen, and they tithed their time and skills
and
>> >> >> built churches.
>> >> >
>> >> >That's a neat story, but you didn't get it from the Bible. I
don't even
>> >> >particularly doubt it, but you're trying to add it to scripture
when it
>isn't
>> >> >there. Furthermore, even assuming it's true (which isn't
necessarily so),
>> >that
>> >> >creates no commandment for us. Stop adding to the Bible.
>> >>
>> >> That you mis-interpret and misread the Bible AND my comments does
NOT
>> >> equal that I "add" to the Bible. I add nothing. It's a difference
of
>> >> POV and interpretation. And your attitude does NOT elicit a
response.
>> >
>> >You never defend your unbiblical positions, John, and my attitude is
not at
>all
>> >unreasonable. If you actually think that tithing is necessary, why
don't you
>> >respond to my rebuttal to Mark's lengthy post on the subject? Since
I was
>> >responding to someone else, you could hardy pule about my "attitude"
in that
>> >post.
>>
>> You have the right to your POV, as do I. And I stand by it. I also
>> have stated MANY times that I present my view of scripture; I do not
>> debate it endlessly; and when you and others decide to tear it down
>> piece by piece, I withdraw. I do not believe in debating. You accept
>> it as scriptural or you do not; to debate is in my mind a waste of
>> time; furthermore you prove my point by not indicating ANY receptivity
>> to other POVs.
>
>I understand, believe it or not, your POV. As it happens, I can think
of
>several items on which I have changed my mind as a direct result of
>conversations in this newsgroup. However, if one's doctrine cannot
stand up to
>attack, one should rethink it.
>
>>
>> IOW, MY mind could be changed; I don't perceive that yours could.
>> Therefore, it would be one-sided.
>
>My history suggests otherwise.
>
>> But I personally believe that
>> debating scripture is sin.
>
>All debating? Where do you get this idea?
I came to it before I went to seminary; my seminary studies confirmed
it, for ME. I checked it with my dean and several other professors who
agreed. Paul said "be ready with an answer." I have presented my POV
and scripture with which I justify it. Jesus said to not neglect the
tithe. Paul gave us instructions on how to collect the tithe.
That is sufficient.
I do not believe in a battle of wits and this passage and then that
pasage.
And yes, I do debate OTHER subjects. Just not scripture. I see no
indication that Jesus ever debated scripture after His barmitzpah,
where debating with the elders to prove His knowledge of scripture was
REQUIRED by tradition and law. Paul chose to debate the Greeks in
Athens; he was also #2 or #3 rabbi in Israel, and I believe he had
that authority.
My leaning, and I feel no need to justify it, is if your heart and
spirit were open to honoring God with your income, we would not be
having this debate. Once I determine that your heart is hard, I move
on.
Your heart seems to be hard. I move on. For the record, I was a
champion debater in college.
And I debated QUITE successflly in seminary amongst my peers. I even
came up with a number of new insights even my professors hadn't heard.
Such as when the chruch began, which I alluded to in another thread.
I have successfully presented my POV to you; I have need, no wish, and
no desire to convert you. That's between you and God. I am content to
have showed you my POV scripturally. That you have said, "No, you
didn't," confirms to me that you aren't open to my POV.
I hope I've answered you satisfactorily.
God bless,
John W
*************************************************************************
From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.pente
costal,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.charismatic
Subject: Re: Tithing
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:27:08 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 03:09:26 -0700, John W
><john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:49:17 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 26 Aug 2003 07:30:15 -0700, shaolinninji...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Sensei
>>>Shaolin) wrote:
>>>
>>>>> They give a percentage / what they can afford to give, of
>>>>> their resources, including their time and talents. What do you
think
>>>>> the building of the churches Paul founded was about?
>>>>
>>>>Cheerful giving, not cheerful tithe-paying!
>>>
>>>That is correct.
>>
>>And I am saying "to each his own interpretation. If it pleases you to
>>"rob God" of His tithe, go for it.
>>
>>John W
>
>Hey John, it would help to give your reasons from scripture. I
>personally believe the Bible only has one interpretation. :-)
Oh, really? So you see no room for both Sunday wor****p for Christians
and Sabbath wor****p for those of Adventist leaning?
You see no squiggle room for Lutherans who are 99 % right on to
believe as the Romans do that the Eucharist is the body and blood?
Interpretation.
Paul said, "one of you is offended by meat; another eats meat with no
problem; one of you observes Sunday wor****p, another observes Sabbath;
one of you keeps all the Holiday, another sees all days as the same.
Be convinced in your own mind!"
You, my brother are a Pharisee! "My way, or the highway!"
Even Jesus endorsed different denominations, as did Paul above.
The disciples came to Jesus and said, "We found some guys who aren't
members of our little circle (clique), and they were preaching the
Kingdom of God same as you, but they weren't part of our little
clique, so we told them to shut up! What should we do NEXT time?:
Jesus said, "LEAVE THEM ALONE! IF they are preaching the same message
I preach, what harm do they do?"
That makes 2 churches even while Jesus was preaching.
Paul endorsed church splits. "One wants to wor****p on Sunday, the
other on the Sabbath! Go in peace!"
What harm is done if the Baptist immerse in good conscience and the
Methodists believe as the Baptists, only they prefer sprinkling? They
cannot comfortably wor****p together, but if we create 2 churches,
those who choose sprinkling are happy and can wor****p by their
conscience, as can the Baptists.
For this reason, rather than "denominatinos" indicating "strife", they
indicate there's room for a WIDE diversity of opinions on an ENDLESS
number of topics, as long as the basics are covered, what CS Lewis
calls "Mere Christianity."
God bless,
John W
*****************************************************
From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.pente
costal,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.charismatic
Subject: Re: Tithing
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:18:12 -0400, "David Vestal"
<someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:jp0pkvk62msb9t58pdntk6sk381acd782o@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:49:17 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 26 Aug 2003 07:30:15 -0700, shaolinninji...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Sensei
>> >Shaolin) wrote:
>> >
>> >>> They give a percentage / what they can afford to give, of
>> >>> their resources, including their time and talents. What do you
think
>> >>> the building of the churches Paul founded was about?
>> >>
>> >>Cheerful giving, not cheerful tithe-paying!
>> >
>> >That is correct.
>>
>> And I am saying "to each his own interpretation. If it pleases you to
>> "rob God" of His tithe, go for it.
>
>I admire the way you honor your electric company with your monthly
cheerful gift
>of love.
How did your snide remark contribute to a serious topic?
John W
*************************************************************************
***
From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.pente
costal,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.charismatic
Subject: Re: Tithing
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:18:12 -0400, "David Vestal"
<someoggetridoft...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>"John W" <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:jp0pkvk62msb9t58pdntk6sk381acd782o@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:49:17 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 26 Aug 2003 07:30:15 -0700, shaolinninji...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Sensei
>> >Shaolin) wrote:
>> >
>> >>> They give a percentage / what they can afford to give, of
>> >>> their resources, including their time and talents. What do you
think
>> >>> the building of the churches Paul founded was about?
>> >>
>> >>Cheerful giving, not cheerful tithe-paying!
>> >
>> >That is correct.
>>
>> And I am saying "to each his own interpretation. If it pleases you to
>> "rob God" of His tithe, go for it.
>
>I admire the way you honor your electric company with your monthly
cheerful gift
>of love.
>
If you feel you cannot give cheerfully and with love, keep it in your
wallet or buy another case of Bud.
John W
*********************************************************
From: John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.prayer,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
n.pentecostal,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian.charismatic
Subject: Re: Tithing
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On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:32:08 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 03:32:57 -0700, John W
><john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:36:54 +1200, Fred Young <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 26 Aug 2003 17:45:06 GMT, John W <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Not so. The church began with the calling the 12. They were the 1st
>>>>believers other than His parents. And so Jesus had 3 1/2 years to
>>>>declare a number of new laws.
>>>
>>>Matthew 10:2-7
>>>
>>>2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon,
>>>who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee,
>>>and John his brother;
>>>3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James
>>>the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
>>>4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
>>>5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not
>>>into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans
>>>enter ye not:
>>>6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
>>>7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
>>>
>>>This was not the church. The church is universal. This was the
>>>commission to go to the "house of Israel" only and to declare that the
>>>Kingdom of heaven was at hand. This was the message of the kingdom
>>>regarding Israel only, as prophesied in the Old Testament.
>>>
>>>The Church did not begin until Pentecost.
>>
>>That is YOUR opinion, and you are welcome to it. However, being free
>>in Christ, I disagree. The Holy Spirit was given to the disciples LONG
>>before Pentecost.
>
>Can you tell me when?
You missed it. The first church was Jesus, His parents (no indication
that His siblings believed on Him until MUCH later), the 12 whom He
called, and perhaps some friends and neighbors. Surely those who
witnesed the first miracle became believers.
When He sent the 12 out, "heal, raise the dead, cast out demons,
preach the Kingdom has come," and He gave them His Holy Spirit, the
chruch began.
I also don't see the issue as worthy of debate. I will try to POLITELY
clarify my position as yuo have questions. I am one who believes it's
sinful to debate scripture. I was raised with that POV; I have found
no reason to change it. Paul said "be ready with an answer." He did
NOT say "debate endlessly" though he personally chose to go to Greece
and debate the philosophers of his day in Athens.
There is no indication that that debate won any converts as I recall.
Which shows even Paul made some mistakes. One of the reasons I don't
debate the Bible is Paul's fruitless trip to Athens. I have reason to
believe he debated at the Parthenon (am I saying that right?) It's
where all the statues (idols) to the various gods and goddeses were.
He used the statue/idol labeled "To the Unknown God" to preach the
gospel. "The Unknown God you seek is Christ/Yhwy!"
>
>>When the apostles were indwelt to go preach the
>>Kingdom, that was one of the first missionary outreaches of the
>>church.
>
>Well, you know I disagree there. It wasn't the church, it was "to the
>lost sheep of the house of Israel." The church came after Israel's
>rejection.
And the first born again believers were Jews. The Pentecost experience
happened with Jews.
Yet the first person He told who HE was, other than the 12, was the
half-breed woman.
God bless,
John W
>
>>
>>This was one of the issues we debated HOTLY in seminary. I alone gave
>>my POV. The professor, Dr. William McBirnie, said it was
>>"interesting," (he hadn't heard it before, I'm guessing, ) and I got
>>"the A for the day."
>
>Haha! Did he say you were right?
It wasn't a "right" or "wrong". This was an e***enical,
non-denominationsl seminary. He didn't agree; he didn't disagree. He,
the VP of the school, was more interested in helping us form our own
solid opinions. Like I said, I wouln't have gotten the A for the day
if he'd disagreed.
Let's say he liked my answer, even as 100 pastors (it is a "graduate
school for pastors I lucked into) shook their heads and said, "No
way!"
He held up his hand for Quiet! And said, "That's an interesting POV,
Mr Weatherly! And you get the A for the day!
I got the idea that Dr. McBirnie was teachable, and I had taught him
something, even with his 10 Ph Ds.
And I dont' mean that arrogantly. This is a man who I almost
wor****pped. His knowledge was mind-boggling. He was a speed-reader and
had read virtually every book on the subjects of Christianity,
religion, and philosophy. And I managed to teach him something new.
Your notion of Pentecost is typical. My notion of the sending of the
12 is unique. And I've found few who agree.
And frankly, I don't believe it's worthy of arguing about. We're here;
the church is here.
God bless,
John W
>
>>
>>John W
>>
>>John W
>>
>>Israel and the Church are
>>>distinct. The purpose of the age of the Church is to "call out a
>>>people for himself" - His body, the Church, the bride of Christ.
>>>
>>>The Old testament prophets knew nothoing of the Church, it was a
>>>"mystery." The apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and he
>>>delcared the "mystery" doctrine of the Church which was never known in
>>>the Old Testament.
>>>
>>>The Church is different from Israel. Believers in the Old Testament
>>>are never said to be in union with Christ through the baptism of the
>>>Spirit - 1 Corinthians 12:13. They are not members of the body of
>>>Christ.
*************************************************************************
**
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From: "Scout Lady" <yi2zcj02@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist
Subject: Re: jw was Re: To top-post or not to top-post; a darn good
question! (was: To top-post or not to top-post; a darn good question!)
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 21:26:16 -0400
Lines: 162
Message-ID: <c4qg0t$2lo1lp$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
References: <MPG.1ad2457224c910ce989f52@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> <141z76a7bkjyz$.82ai0ulgl05n
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>
Reply-To: "Scout Lady" <tqiwp9u02remove@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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"walksalone" <spam@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:141z76a7bkjyz$.82ai0ulgl05n$.dlg@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On 3 Apr 2004 17:39:08 GMT, john w wrote:
>
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
> > copyright 2004
> > On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:03:33 GMT, Iba Pillar <IbaPillar@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > wrote:
> > john w responded under copyright
> >>On 2 Apr 2004 09:18:05 GMT, john w <john_weatherly47@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
> >>
> >>>x-no-archive: yes
> >>>
> >>>On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:56:11 -0500, "galia" <galia@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
> >>> john w responded
> >>>>
> >>>>"John Hennekes" <johnhennekes@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >>>>news:57266a6f.0404010507.748352c9@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> "galia" <galia@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >>>>news:<sVIac.13485$kc2.290909@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>...
> >>>>> > "john w" <john_weatherly47@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >>>>> > news:ac4l60tqhi35572899d4gtb35gp20e1k18@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> > > x-no-archive: NO
> >>>>> > > c 2004 John D. Weatherly
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:59:14 -0500, "galia"
<galia@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >>>>> > > wrote:
> >>>>> > > john w responded, under copyright
> >>>>> > > >
> >>>>> > > >"john w" <john_weatherly47@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >>>>> > > >news:kioj60plmf9pv36qjc13o0lq8o3tp54jn8@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> > > >
> >>>>> > > >> Once again Elaine proves she is a TOTAL *****. No sign of
either
> >>>>#1
> >>>>> > > >> intelligent life of #2 Christianity there.
> >>>>> > > >>
> >>>>> > > >
> >>>>> > > >No sign of Christianity here .....
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > Well, my "friend" galia. That was a REAL fast flip-flop. Why
am
I not
> >>>>> > > surprised? Elaine has been a total ***** for roughly 6
months.
Now
> >>>>> > > you are joining her "Hate John W club" once again?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > It's sad, that you are unwilling (that's all what it is) to
accept
> >>>>> > responsibility
> >>>>> > once again for your actions. There is no excuse John W. to
call
> >>>>somebody a
> >>>>> > '*****',
> >>>>> > especially not from someone who claims to be a christian. I am
sorry to
> >>>>> > tell you,
> >>>>> > but you are a hateful and vindictive man John W. You derive
pleasure
> >>>>from
> >>>>> > putting other people down, just to elevate your ego.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > Lots of Christians curse, galia. Even you have done so. In
here. So
> >>>>> > > has Elaine. Is it only okay when you and she do it?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Nobody has such a foul mouth like you do!
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > So what's your gripe? Elaine has showed ME no love, no
sympathy, no
> >>>>> > > understanding, and no Christianity. And she HAS verbally
abused
me as
> >>>>> > > much as I've abused ANYONE in here.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > What about turning the other cheek? You demand it from others,
so
why
> >>>>can't
> >>>>> > you live up to it?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > So have you.
> >>>>> > Message ID please!
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > She has libeled me.
> >>>>> > You are making constanly slanderous remarks about others; you
are
an
> >>>>abuser!
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > > She has lied to me and about me.
> >>>>> > So have you....
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > And you're right back in her club?
> >>>>> > I am in no club!
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > Now I am getting YOUR bad side again. Were my forgiveness of
you and
> >>>>> > > my apology to you premature?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > What was the motive for your apology?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > >
> >>>>> > > Jesus said, "Be either hot or cold; do not be lukewarm or
I'll
spit
> >>>>> > > you out of my mouth!
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Well, the way you act right now, you are cold!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Galia,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It has been shown, over and over again, that when we agree,
> >>>>> everything's fine, but God forbid when we happen to disagree.
Who
> >>>>> wants a lukewarm friend? Who wants a hot and cold friend****p? I
> >>>>> write vaguely, here, as to target so will have to trust that
you're
> >>>>> okay with the 2+2s.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Iba Pillar
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks for your reply, John and I agree with you, that the show is
being
> >>>>repeated over and over again. I am not motivated anymore to pursue
it
> >>>>any longer, because his answers are so predictable. God knows, I
have
done
> >>>>my
> >>>>best and I'll put it into His hands.
> >>>
> >>>God knows that your best is hypocritical and "I'm better than you,
> >>>galia!"
> >>>
> >>>You and John Hennekes have a VERY low (no) tolerance for everyone's
> >>>"sins" but your own.
> >>>
> >>>I also did my best. That didn't count any more with you than your
> >>>"best" counts with me or God.
> >>>
> >>No, I have not. I've heard stories about it, but I've never been
there.
I got to Turkey, and I walked in Paul's steps briefly. THAT Was a thrill.
> >
> > Heard the water's absolutely thirst-quenching there,
> >>though the choice of two buckets can be just a bit confusing. The
Word
has it
> >>to actually pick the dry one...strange as that might seem.
> >
> > There are some interesting traditions from the Middle East and the
> > Holy Land.
>
> On pertaining to your mythology is the Cave of Miracles, you have no
doubt
> a regular treatise on why the candles continue to burn & where they
are.
>
Tell us about the Cave of Miracles, I have never heard of it. Do you have
a
url?
***********************************************************
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Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 04:24:07 GMT
Lines: 97
From: walksalone <walksalone@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Three Possibilities
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist
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On 4 Apr 2004 20:27:32 GMT, john w wrote:
> From: john w <john_weatherly47@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Newsgroups:
alt.talk.creationism,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christia
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> Subject: Re: Three Possibilities
> Reply-To: God in Heaven
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>
> On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 09:04:21 -0700, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
> john w responded under copyright
>>In article <vpnv60580d6scjv7hkvrd71ik0sqei60kb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, God in Heaven
wrote:
>>
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>> On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 08:31:50 -0800, IKnowHim@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> (IKnowHimDoYou) wrote:
>>> john w responded under copyright
>>> >Three Possibilities
>>> >
>>> >As we approach Easter many ask, "Who is this Jesus of Nazareth?".
To the
>>> >people of the world system He is nothing perhaps even not worth
asking the
>>> >question. To the agnostic He is a puzzle that seems to make no
sence but
>>> >intriquing. To the born again follower of Jesus of Nazareth He is
>>> >everything. Can they all be right? If one is true then the others
must be
>>> >false but which one is true?
>>> >
>>> >So, who do you say He is?
>>> >
>>> >There are really only three possibilities:
>>> >
>>> >1. He is a liar
>>> >
>>> >2. He is a Lunatic
>>> >
>>> >3. He is Lord
>>> >
>>> >Look close. Examine Him; read what He said; what He did.
>>>
>>> Nice outline.
>>>
>>> Why don't you explain what you mean?
>>>
>>> If you don't, perhaps I shall.
>>>
>>> jw
>>>
>>> >
>>> >Your eternal destiny depends on your answer...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
_________________________________________________________________________
______
>>
>>Be my guest...
>
> I'd be delighted; however, since I no longer have the books, I don't
> recall which one, so perhaps you could supply the correct title, the
> author is a man b |
