jwexpress_0796.txt

>
>  For Catholics and Orthodox, the Holy Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ
>  Jesus, 
> and by consequence Mother of God, because Christ was the Son of God,
> The Holy Virgin Mary is for her sons and daughters in Christ, a sort
> of idol. I will not argue you on that point. Catholics and Orthodox
> venerate Her for what She was and is, the Holy Mother of Christ Jesus,
> our Brother. God is not the God of the dead but of the livings.

The Bible says quite clearly that after Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph
had ***. See Matthew 1:24-25
This account begins with (Joseph awaking from his vision with the angel
who announced the impregnation of Mary by the Holy Spirit),
"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded
him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until
she gave birth to a son (Jesus)."
Key words: "...he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave
birth to a son..."
Elsewher in the Gospels, we are told Mary and Joseph had other children.

You are wor****ping Mary. She was not a virgin, she was Joseph's wife.
Your views that Mary is The Blessed Virgin is pagan. You have diefied
her. And she was a sinner just like you and me.

>
> >
> >The Bible isn't an idol. And nowhere in the Bible does God prohibit
> >using a Bible while praying.
> >But the 10 Commandments are VERY specific in prohibiting statues
> >(graven images) either of man or beast in church.
> >"You shall not make for yourself an idol *in the form of anything in
> >heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." I dare
> >say, Mary and the 'saints" qualify to be "anything in heaven above or
> >on the earth..."
>
> Who said the Bible was an idol.

IF you had followed the thread, David Grimes first alluded to the notion
that he had "seen many Protestants kneeling before a Bible in prayer"
and compared that to Catholics kneeling at a statue in church and
praying. 

> The Bible is a book. Not a historical book,
> but a book just the same.

Actually, parts of the Bible are the only histories we have of certain
peoples, such as the Jews, the Cannanites, etc.


> A religious Holy Book. If you venerate your Bible,
> Catholics and Orthodox will respect your veneration.

That is appropriate. The Bible teaches us to venerate (not wor****p) the
Bible, because it's God's word.
However, that does not compare to the RCC pagan wor****p of Mary and
"saints". All born again beleivers are saints, anyway, according to the
epistles. So there is no reason to wor****p "saints".

>
>
> The Jewish Thora is not applicable to Christians unless Christians
> decide otherwise. So, don't throw the Thora at Catholics or Orthodox,
> for we will throw the Kur'an at you and you won't like it. You know
> little about the Holy Scripture, so read it and keep it to yourself.
> You citation from the Jewish Thora is evidence that you don't know
> whether you are coming or going in Scriptures.

You don't need to tell me how to wor****p. And don't bother to "throw the
Koran" at me. Every thing you type here indicates you have no clue what
you are talking about. You are merely parroting the Catechism with which
you have been brainwashed. I notice you don't quote the Bible very much.
I also don't agree with your rip about "reading the Bible and keeping it
to myself..." The whole point of being a Christian is to spread the Good
News of Jesus, not keep it to myself. If you want anyone to shut up, I
suggest You shut up. 


>
> >
> >Since the RCC pagan religion breaks the laws of God openly, it's
> >obviously okay with you and other Roman Catholics because they're RCC
> >pagans. You are a hypocrite! And the truth of God is not in you!
> >
> Which Law of God? Catholics and Orthodox are not Jews. Catholics and
> Orthodox are supposed to abide by Jesus' Teachings, nothing else. Most
> interpret the NT as it should be while Fundamentalists sing the NT
> instead of reading it and properly interpret it. You are making a mess
> of the NT Scriptures you pretend to defend.

We are not to interpret when the meaning is clear. And When I say you
break the laws of God openly, I am speaking about the 10 commandments,
which tell us 1. "have no other gods (Mary) before me" 2 and no "graven
images" (statues of Mary and "saints" which you have in your buildings).
If you are goign to respond to my post, you could at least keep up with
the thread. And I don't "interpret" the New Tesatment. I am quoting it
as I type. You vaguely refer to yoru knowledge, but I don't see you
quoting. 


>
>
> >We are not to pray to Mary because the Bible quotes Jesus as saying
> >that there is ONE MEDIATOR/INTERCESSOR  between God and man, and that
> >ONE MEDIATOR/INTERCESSOR  is Jesus, not Mary and not any "Saint"..
> >Yet you openly admit that you and other Catholics pray to Mary and
> >the "saints" (every believer in Jesus Christ is a "saint" by the way)
> >to "intercede" for you.
>
> As i mentioned before, Catholics and Orthodox do not wor****p Mary,
> they Venerate the Mother of  Christ Jesus, God's Mother.

Show me one verse in the Bible that calls her "God's Mother". You are
wor****pping her. And she isn't God or a god.

> The One and only. They
> even compliment Her by a prayer called the Ave Maria. I still remember
> a few words of that prayer which in fact is not a prayer but a
> Magnificat. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee, blessed
> are thou amongs women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus..."
> What do you have to say against that? Isn't that the kind of
> compliment you would address to the mother of your own children? Jesus
> was for Christians the Child by excellence. Isn't his Mother the
> Mother by excellence. Like Mother like Son. What can i say?

Why are you paying her any homage at all? I would certainly compliment
my mother, but I would not make my compliments a matter of worshp in
church, or a matter of faith. You are so brainwashed you can't see
straight, and you wonder why we call you pagans. If it isn't in the
Bible, it isn't Christian doctrine. You guys make it up as you go.

>
>
> >
> >When you "cannonize" "Saints", you turn them into gods who you
> >consider worthy of being prayed to "to intercede for us." That is
> >heresy! Men can not make people into gods.
>
> I pray St. Christopher to see me through with this difficult post
> because i am about to burst into laughing, at you that is. LOL.

See? There you go again, praying to a man. St. Christopher isn't a god,
so why do you pray to him? The only person who has the power to
intercede is Jesus/Christ/Son of God.

>
> >
> >Every time I ask a Roman Catholic why they would need Mary or a Saint
> >to pray for them, I hear, "Well, I figure some of my sins are so bad
> >that Jesus wouldn't listen." That is heresy. If Jesus loved you
> >enough to die in your place, your lusting after your neighbor's wife,
> >or even your screwing your neighbor's wife when her husband isn't
> >home, isn't going to put you on Jesus' "brown list". Remember when
> >the Jews brought to Jesus the woman who had been caught in the very
> >act of adultery? She had been caught having intercourse with a man
> >whom she wasn't married to. 
>
> I think you have a Catholic complex and it shows. Take a cold shower.
> You know little about Jewish habits at the time of Jesus. It was
> permitted for a prostitute to have ***ual relations with unmarried
> Jewish men but not Jewish married men.

You still have no concept of the New Testament standing alone without a
whole lot of RCC pagan crap included. When you make these pronouncements
about your faith in RCC paganism, I see no scripture references
whatever. I shall not respond to any more fo your posts. I just have to
wonder why you are in a Baptist news group. ????? YOu are a waste of
time. 


>
>
> Women were not to prostitute for money. Knowing Jews, money was no
> problem. You can trust the word of a Jew. He signs contracts only with
> gentiles, not with his fellowmen. They didn't have to pay off gentile
> prostitutes they owned them.
>
> They wouldn't have called a gentile woman a prostitute, simply a whore
> or another woman. Oh, but a Jewish woman of little virtue was a bad,
> bad woman. A prostitute for sure. A Jewish woman had to be kosher. No
> one gave a darn about Gentile women prostitutes, the Jewish law, for
> the most, did not apply to them.
>
> In
> >Christ's day, that offense was punishable by death. Jesus was totally
> >within His rights to demand that she be stoned immediatley. He
> >didn't! He released her!
>
> I would like to know how many Jewish woman prostitutes were stoned.
> You kill one and she is replaced by two. Jews were no smarter nor more
> prude than most. You under estimate the virility of Jews. They have
> their little idols too. One being the Golden Calf, but you don't see
> that one. Let me tell you this, they did not leave that little Golden
> Calf in the desert. It was made from jewels of gold and silver and it
> is still around, alive and kicking. Most Christians also have thier
> little Golden calf. If you don't, give me all of your possessions. Oh
> no hein! Shows how hypocrite you are accusing others of idolatry.
>
> >
> >Can you sin so terribly that you must pray to Mary? Never!
> >
> >And when you pray to Mary, you make her into a god. She is not a god.
> >She is not part of the Trinity, above the Son in authority. That is
> >heresy, and it is pagan.
>
> Catholics and Orthodox are sinners. Simon, the Master fisherman was a
> sinner. We are all sinners. Only Reformists, Fundamentalists and born
> again Christians do not sin.

I never said I don't sin. You are so twisted you must attack me.
I will not waste any more of my time with you. I will pray that before
you die, you become exposed to the Truth. You are far from it at this
time. 


> Catholics and Orthodox are aware of that for they
> read from your Word of God. "Forgive them for they know not".
> >
> >And you, who give the RCC pagan religion every excuse in the world
> >for openly breaking God's laws, are a hypocrite!
>
> Ask your holy sprout and she will say the same thing. Socrates also
> had his good little demon and Socrates has been dead for quite
> sometime. Wonder where his inspiring little demon went? Where will
> yours go? 

"holy sprout?" What the heck are you talking about? Never mind! You are
a waste of time.

>
> >
> >Any child can tell you the difference between a Bible and a statue!
> >If you can't tell the difference, you have no brain.
>
> You know something, you can wipe your ass with your Bible if you want
> to. That is none of our business. Mind your own business, you are not
> God. Follow Jesus' Teachings and quit babbling.

Screw you and your insults. And I am being polite for where I am. I am
not telling anyone I am superior. I am a sinner saevd by grace. But you
claimed above that you aren't even a sinner. You said you didn't need to
be born again becuase you were never lost. If you were never lost, why
do you now claim that you're a sinner? You can't have it both ways.
Which is why I say you spout with no idea of waht you are talking about.
Which makes you a good Roman Catholic. You believe what you are told to
believe, with no thought of what it means and that one half of what you
say contradicts the other half. Are you a sinner? Or are you perfect,
and not ni need of being born again, like you started this post saying?

> We will do the same. Why do you
> think i chose to answer your dribbles? Because you need help. Your
> Catholic complex is hurting you and i don't like to see a person
> suffer. I just want to help you organize your life and live your
> religious life the way you wish. The Catholic-Orthodox Church is not
> imposing anything on you. What really is your problem? An obsession?

I didn't wriet to you. I wrote to David Grimes after I blocked his
ridiculous e-mails. You chose to write this post to me. I responded. I
won't again. You have nothing to say.

>
> >
> >But there you go, again and again, blindly defending the Roman
> >Catholic pagan religion, while you also blindy comdemn born again
> >Christians who aren't Catholic.
>
> You must be crazy. Do you think that Christ's Church needs defenders?
> Those who defend the Church do it on their own, they do not really
> defend Her, they are trying to educate the lost ones.

And you are carzy if you believe that the RCC pagan religion is
"Christ's Church". The church was started by Christ in the 1st Century.
The RCC pagan religion didn't rear its ugly head until the 3rd century.


>
> >
> >I rebuke you in the name of Jesus!
>
> This is like a midget insulting a giant. What will the giant do? Give
> the midget a candy or a cigarette. Your rebuke is insignificant not
> worth a two cent candy.
> >
> John, do us all a favor, get real drunk or sniff ammonia or something.

Blow it out your ear! But then, a demon such as yourself doesn't have
ears. And I will stop wasting my time on you now.
john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> How did you like my uppercuts? Well, to a stupid post a stupid answer.
> You get what you SOW.
>
> What a confused world these NGs. Enough to become a complete Atheist.
> Christians? What's that. Many fakers, that's for sure.
>
> >john weatherly
> >john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >



    

	   From: t...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 (New PF)
Subject: Re: David Grimes, A Roman Catholic and Heretic
Date: 2000/04/30
Message-ID: <time-3004002248140001@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
<sge2jmoeqgc88@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <39078EC6.346ABCE0@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
<sgh083a1qtj138@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <390BA49B.991AFD62@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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957098890 13225 210.23.146.161 (30 Apr 2000 12:48:10 GMT) Organization:
Pacific Internet (Australia) NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Apr 2000 12:48:10 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist

In article <390BA49B.991AF...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, John Weatherly
<john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:


> >
> >
> > Now, I might ask you, what happens to little children if they die
> > before they believe in your religion?
> >
> 
> The Bible teaches that before children reach the age at which they
> understand what salvation is all about, they are without sin. 

Well that certainly goes for a lot of us

I certainly can't make head or tail of it

Have I got it right

1. god creates the world
2. Everyone sins because it is more fun than being righteous 
3. God gets cross
4. Destroys everyone except Noah the "Arkfull Dodger" of Genesis and his
boatful 

INTERLUDE

increase and multiply - start again - dry out - nice rainbow - off to
Egypt, bad move, descendents end up as slaves and god gets Moses to
resue them

INTERLUDE

5. Everything goes bung with sin again
6. This time god has a bright idea:
 Problem - wages of sin is death -
           lots of sin and the powers charging the ransom has to be
           paid. 
Bible does not say who to but intimates existence of "other powers" in
Pauls writings.  These "powers" are clearly stronger than god or he is
in hock to them for some reason.

Solution - Send son to be executed - Virgin birth(keep *** out of this)
- born in stable - Baptised by John the B. and starts ministry

7.Romans get real P.O with him and some of the Jewish authorities don't
like him 8.Crucified by Romans for sedition but this is a con by God -
the Romans are really being used by God to kill Jesus so he can pay the
ransom for sin (to the other powers aforementioned)
9. Jesus dies in agony
10 Three days later resurrects


11 now if you really believe numbers one to ten then you are saved
12. Im****tant Question is believing enough or do you have to live a nice
life and do what Jesus taught? - there is disagreement on this.  Most
Americans seem to think lowering personal taxes is enough - some think
you should make lots of soup too.

But I think you should do more - this is an impartial view - I'm not a
Christian in terms of these people.

Hope this helps some of you to go from the child level where your
ignorance and lack of understanding of salvation theology could get you
to heaven to the conscious stage where they can send you to Hell. 

Personally I am darned if I can get Salvation Theology to work so I
guess I'll have to put up with Heaven and all those kids


    
    From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: To: David Grimes, A Roman Catholic and Heretic
Date: 2000/04/26
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist

David!

You claim to have a corner on the Bible and truth.
But you never answered my question which I put to you in e-mail,
Are you born again?
Jesus Himself said that we must be born again to enter God's Kingdom.

"No one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."
John 3:3

Are you born again? I'd love to read your explanation of why Roman
Catholics are not required to be born again. Everyone else is.

And you justify Catholics kneeling before statues by the flimsy excuse
"Well, Protestants kneel before their Bibles and pray. Isn't that
wor****pping idols?"

The Bible isn't an idol. And nowhere in the Bible does God prohibit
using a Bible while praying.
But the 10 Commandments are VERY specific in prohibiting statues (graven
images) either of man or beast in church.
"You shall not make for yourself an idol *in the form of anything in
heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." I dare
say, Mary and the 'saints" qualify to be "anything in heaven above or on
the earth..."

Since the RCC pagan religion breaks the laws of God openly, it's
obviously okay with you and other Roman Catholics because they're RCC
pagans. You are a hypocrite! And the truth of God is not in you!

We are not to pray to Mary because the Bible quotes Jesus as saying that
there is ONE MEDIATOR/INTERCESSOR  between God and man, and that ONE
MEDIATOR/INTERCESSOR  is Jesus, not Mary and not any "Saint".. Yet you
openly admit that you and other Catholics pray to Mary and the "saints"
(every believer in Jesus Christ is a "saint" by the way) to "intercede"
for you.

When you "cannonize" "Saints", you turn them into gods who you consider
worthy of being prayed to "to intercede for us." That is heresy! Men can
not make people into gods.

Every time I ask a Roman Catholic why they would need Mary or a Saint to
pray for them, I hear, "Well, I figure some of my sins are so bad that
Jesus wouldn't listen." That is heresy. If Jesus loved you enough to die
in your place, your lusting after your neighbor's wife, or even your
screwing your neighbor's wife when her husband isn't home, isn't going
to put you on Jesus' "brown list". Remember when the Jews brought to
Jesus the woman who had been caught in the very act of adultery? She had
been caught having intercourse with a man whom she wasn't married to. In
Christ's day, that offense was punishable by death. Jesus was totally
within His rights to demand that she be stoned immediatley. He didn't!
He released her!

Can you sin so terribly that you must pray to Mary? Never!

And when you pray to Mary, you make her into a god. She is not a god.
She is not part of the Trinity, above the Son in authority. That is
heresy, and it is pagan.

And you, who give the RCC pagan religion every excuse in the world for
openly breaking God's laws, are a hypocrite!

Any child can tell you the difference between a Bible and a statue! If
you can't tell the difference, you have no brain.

But there you go, again and again, blindly defending the Roman Catholic
pagan religion, while you also blindy comdemn born again Christians who
aren't Catholic.

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus!

john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
        From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: What historical evidence validates the resurrection of
Christ? Date: 2000/04/26
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alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy 

Right, pferd!
So why believe and go to Heaven, when you can *not* believe, and go to
Hell?
Makes sense to me!
And, besides, believing is such a crock! I mean who wants rewards, both
in this life and in the life to come? I mean, Christians are happy, we
are fulfilled, we get gifts, we enjoy *** without guilt, we have
children and enjoy them totally, we are law-abiding citizens, we gon't
tattoo ourselves from head to foot, we don't get our noses and lips and
eyes pierced, as do the Satan worshppers! We Christians are such a drag!

Why have faith when you can have *no* faith? Why believe in God when you
can believe in..... nothing...

Praise God!
john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

> In article <2VwM4.3801$Hc7.113...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, "Kurt L."
> <ibkurtis[no spam]@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > BY FAITH THROUGH GRACE...
> > Exchangedlife <nos...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > news:39042896.122200077@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > What historical evidence validates the resurrection of Christ?
>
> Regretably none at all.
>
> But there are an awful lot of perfectly rational explanations of the
> events recorded in the Gospels



      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: The Struggle With Masturbation
Date: 2000/04/25
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist

To follow up on Jennifer's POV, first of all, I have to wonder, among
adults, why she is "uncomfortable with the subject"? However, I would
take her advice a step further. Don't just "decide" whether M is a sin
or not. Educate yourself about what the Bible says about it (nothing)
and what other Christian writers say about it. There are those who
oppose it ,and those who favor it for we un-married. And, contrary to
Jennifer's POV that perhaps you should "just get married", that is not
the easiest thing to do. I myself am not presently qualified to even
seek a wife, for personal reasons I need not divulge (no, I am not
homo***ual). My issues have more to do with money (lack of it) and other 
things I will not go into here.
However, one thing I have heard from multiple pastors (theologians/Bible
scholars with Dr. in front of their names) is that where God is silent,
it's because He's leaving it up to us.

Hope this helps.

john weaterly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Usher wrote:

> "RHW5000" <kandy5...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:17XM4.2146$eI5.388816@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >           I have struggled with controlling my urge to masturbate
> >           for 10 
> > years, but I'm still trying to discipline myself to overcome it. 
> > With 
> Gods
> > help and through devoted prayer, He will one day take this
> > temptation out 
> of
> > my body.
> >           I wonder, though, why the Bible stays so slient it.  Do
> >           you 
> think
> > perhaps that it implies masturbation as an alternative to
> > fornication 
> since
> > the later is explicited forbidden.
> >
> > Any Help would be wonderful.
>
> I am hesitant to respond to such a message.  Not a subject I am
> particularly comfortable with.  First, you have to settle for yourself
> the question, is it sin?  If you think it is sin, then it is sin for
> you, whether God would otherwise see it that way, or not.  That is, if
> you believe you are sinning, you are sinning.  But, one can make
> something a sin, which is not.  Is this a sin?  I don't know.  Paul
> did say, "It is better to marry than to burn." Perhaps you should be
> seeking a wife.  But, as I said, first ask yourself if this is sin,
> and then, based on that, seek God's help.  Don't let the Devil make
> you feel guilty about something that is not wrong. 
>
> --
> Jennifer Usher



      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: The Struggle With Masturbation
Date: 2000/04/25
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Excellent response, Vernon.
However, I must disagree in part. Our human frailties and insecurities
often get in the way of our reason. Don't jump to blame human frailities
on the Devil every time. I am not saying he will not use anything he can
get his slimy hands on to neutralize us. I *am* saying that there are
many things we do to ourselves with no help from the Evil one.

john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 O wrote:

> RHW5000 <kandy5...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:17XM4.2146$eI5.388816@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dear Everyone,
> >           I have struggled with controlling my urge to masturbate
> >           for 10 
> > years, but I'm still trying to discipline myself to overcome it. 
> > With 
> Gods
> > help and through devoted prayer, He will one day take this
> > temptation out 
> of
> > my body.
> >           I wonder, though, why the Bible stays so slient it.  Do
> >           you 
> think
> > perhaps that it implies masturbation as an alternative to
> > fornication 
> since
> > the later is explicited forbidden.
> >
> > Any Help would be wonderful.
> >
> > God Bless Everyone!
> >
> > :)
> > RHW5000
> >
>
> Satan loves to accuse.
>
> If the bible doesn't accuse, it is from Satan
>
> Keep Satan out of your life.



      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Are trinitarians really "christian"?
Date: 2000/04/25
Message-ID: <39065002.4CF0DAA1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.pentecostal

And, to address your second point, which I forgot to do in my previous
post, yes, we trinitarians *are* born-again Christians, just as are
Methodists, and Presbyterians, and Lutherans.
john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Rev. Steve Winter" wrote:

> "Russell  McDade" <rmcd...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >
> >Rev. Steve Winter wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >
> >Dear Rev. S. Winter, could you please explain the
> >following verse;
> >
> >Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man,
> >no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the
> >Father. 
> >
> >From the above verse I understand that God the Father
> >has some knowledge that God the Son does or didn't have.
> >Therefore I reason that there is 2 entities referred to in the
> >above verse.
>
> First of all, thank you for honestly affirming your polytheism.
> I wish more trinitarians were honest about their polytheism.
>
> To address your question, Jesus has a dual nature.  For example
> do you believe that the burning bush was omnipresent just because
> the omnipresent Jesus was in the bush?
>
> In this study I will attempt to explain how the son could pray to the
> father and still not be two separate gods (or persons). The key to
> understanding this is understanding "flesh" and "spirit":......
> Here, we see that God the Father of the old testament does NOT have
> flesh and bone (so consider also "The Right Hand" does not mean a big
> ole arm)..See, God is a Spirit and a spirit hath NOT flesh and bone.
> Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle
> me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
> John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that wor****p him must wor****p
> [him] in spirit and in truth....
>
> Also notice the im****tance of TRUTH in wor****ping God, We MUST know
> WHO we are wor****pping! God of the old testament came to earth in
> human form, he did NOT have blood to shed for anyone; sooooo he took
> on a human body and came to his people:......
>
> John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
> II Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the
> world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath
> committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
>
> In other words God came in the form of Christ, not a "second person"
> or "Jehovah Jr.", but God HIMSELF in a human body..the Lord of Glory
> himself....
>
> I Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for
> had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
>
> God did not send anyone else to "do the dirty work"; HE CAME HIMSELF
> and took on a life and then gave up that life for us!!
>
> I John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down
> his life for us...."
>
> God himself in a human body, but even then the Spirit of God was
> greater than the flesh of God..even God had to keep his flesh in
> subjection to his Spirit..It was not the flesh body of God that did
> the miracles, but rather the Spirit that was in the body...and, in the
> garden it was flesh praying to Spirit (not one god praying to another)
>
> John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father,  and the Father
> in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the
> Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
> John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne
> witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen
> his shape. 
>
> (The Father IN the son=The Spirit in the flesh)
>
> Matthew 13:17 {For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and
> righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and
> have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and
> have not heard [them].}
> Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed
> them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my
> beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
> Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art
> my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
> II Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
> when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is
> my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
>
> (Notice "IN WHOM" in each verse, the Father (spirit) was IN the son
> (flesh)). 
>
> John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and
> yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the
> Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
> John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father
> in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the
> Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.....
>
> Jesus Christ, Jehovah God in the flesh....Why is this so im****tant?!?
>
> Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, {The first of all the commandments
> [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:}
>
> Not three lords, not "three separate persons", ONE GOD: JESUS!!.....
>
> Rev. sTeve Winter
> --
> Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
> http://www.onenessapostolic.org
for Bible studies (text and audio)
> Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?



        From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Are trinitarians really "christian"?
Date: 2000/04/25
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Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.presby
terian,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.christnet,alt.bible.proph
ecy,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal 

Thank you, Lucifer!
I don't like the name you use, but i must agree with your POV. Steve
Winter is VERY small minded, in that he refuses to believe what he
doesn't understand. We trinitarians believe in the tri-une God
(Father/Son/Holy Spirit) because the Bible mentions all three multiple
times, and calls all three God. Just because the small-minded Steve
Winter can't understand the mystery of God being 3 names/ministries, he
rejects the mystery of God, preferring a god who is small enough to put
in the box Steve Winter has prepared for him. 

Doesn't make it so!
john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Jones wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:14:16 -0400 in
> alt.religion.christian.pentecostal, Rev. Steve Winter
> <steve.win...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ingested a large dose of a controlled
> substance and decided to share with us the following:
>
> >"justin" <jus...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> spake thusly and wrote:
> >
> >>    My brother I don't mean to agrue but i must ask in how you 
> >>    believe who 
> >>was the Lord Jesus talking to when he said "My God, My God why has
> >>thou forsaken me."
> >
> >Who did you think it was?  Some of you trinity cultists are really
> >silly. 
>
> No sillier than you.
>
> I note that you failed to answer the question.  How typical of you.
>
> >
> >>and to whom did he pray in the garden and why did he always
> >>refer heaven as his father's house and not his own, why did he say
> >>he would sit at the right hand of his father? I don't mean to offend
> >>anyone but you qoute from the old testment before the Lord Jesus
> >>came to earth and there was none to sit by the father.
> >
> >In this post I will attempt to explain how the son could pray to the
> >father and still not be two separate gods (or persons). The key to
> >understanding this is understanding "flesh" and "spirit":......
>
> <snip>
>
> The same ol' "Dichotomy between flesh and spirit" argument even though
> this has been discredited time on end.  There is no evidence--even
> implicit evidence--that suggests that such a dichotomy exists.
>
> Either Jesus was wholly God or he was not.
>
> Your problem--and the problem with all modalists--is that you assume
> that since a thing is incomprehensible it is therefore false.  Lay
> your ego and arrogance aside for once.
>
> You will never understand the nature of the existence of God.  Such a
> being defies all existence by definition.  You've succeeded only in
> constructing a box that has no hope of holding God.
>
> -----
> LJ
>
> "Aw, boy.  Crying isn't going to get your dog back.  Unless your tears
> smell like dog food.  So you can sit here eating can after can of dog
> food until your tears smell enough like dog food to get your dog back,
> or you can do something about it." --Homer Simpson 



       From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Are trinitarians really "christian"?
Date: 2000/04/25
Message-ID: <39065122.5C28D8CD@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.presby
terian,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.christnet,alt.bible.proph
ecy,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal 

Glenn, you are a liar, and an anti-Christ!
john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:40:53 GMT, mbas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 (Mark Bassett)
> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:28:43 -0700, Lucifer Jones
> ><luciferjo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >
> >>Either Jesus was wholly God or he was not.
> >
> >Jesus is both God and Man.
>
> On what do you base this ?
>
> >Hard to understand? No one has EVER understood that with their human
> >capacity. God alone can reveal the mystery of godliness to the mind
> >and heart.
> >Ask Him, he will...
>
> I did, He says Jesus is His son, much as we are His sons and
> daughters.
>
> >-mwb
>
> Glenn (Christian Mystic)



     From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Are trinitarians really "christian"?
Date: 2000/04/25
Message-ID: <390651A3.7150F7BE@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>#1/1
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Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.presby
terian,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.christnet,alt.bible.proph
ecy,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal 

John chapter 1 says The Word was with God, and the Word was God, and He
(Word) became flesh (Christ/God/Son0.
Genesis 1 says God/Father, and also mentions God/Holy Spirit.
If we have God/Father, God/Son, and God/Holy Spirit, we have One God, 3
ministries.

john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Bassett wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:21:20 GMT, g...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 (Glenn (Christian
> Mystic)) wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:40:53 GMT, mbas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 (Mark
> >Bassett) wrote:
> >
> >>On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:28:43 -0700, Lucifer Jones
> >><luciferjo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Either Jesus was wholly God or he was not.
> >>
> >>Jesus is both God and Man.
> >
> >On what do you base this ?
>
> The Bible.
> >
> >>Hard to understand? No one has EVER understood that with their human
> >>capacity. God alone can reveal the mystery of godliness to the mind
> >>and heart.
> >>Ask Him, he will...
> >
> >I did, He says Jesus is His son, much as we are His sons and
> >daughters.
>
> You are talking to someone other than God.
>
> -mwb



          From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Creationism and its prevalence in the US
Date: 2000/04/25
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>#1/1
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>
<3903AC0F.345644B3@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian-teen,alt.religion.christian.methodist,alt.religion
..christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.chr
istian.pentecostal,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy 

Blade:
We Christians don't debate the facts of science. The facts of science
don't change whether you are a Christian/creationist or an atheist
scientist. (By the way, I have known quite a few scientists who are
Christians.) The place we Christians and you atheists differ is the
*interpretation* of the facts, not the facts themselves. Evolution is a
theory based on certain facts, ignoring others that don't fit the
evolution model. Creation is also a theory (to continue the discussion)
based on certain facts.But Christians, unlike atheists, don't ignore 
"those facts that don't sup****t our POV" because there are not. 

john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The Real God!" wrote:

> Blade wrote:
>
> > just wondered over to the new scientist web site and what do I find
> > but a rather good article on Creationism's popularity and prevalence
> > almost exclusively in the US and not really in any other western
> > country (essentially Europe). I suggest every one go and have a look
> > at http://www.newscientist.com/features/features.jsp?id=ns22352
I
> > don't know how long it will be up for, but its interesting non the
> > less. It also eludes to the destruction of the teaching of science
> > in science classes by creationists and the active encouragement of
> > children to not look at things critically when it comes to evolution
> > but instead disbelief it as flawed and inaccurate as a
> > representation of reality. I had no idea just how backward the US
> > education system was becoming, very disturbing. Glad I'm safe in the 
> > UK where American employers looking for scientists with a real
> > education now look to and are willing to pay lots of money to ;)
> >
> > --
> > Blade ICQ#27537648
> >
> > Comparing religion to science is like comparing a molehill to a
> > mountain! 
> >
> > Change .con to demon<dot>co<dot>uk to send mail.
>
> --
> The Real God!, thus spake: "IN GOD WE TRUST!"
>
> As with all Social Systems/Governments/Tribes/Kings ect...
>
> The government's, business's and religion's are one and the same.
>
> The US leader****p sup****ts religions because they make
>
> good workers, who make more ignorant children.
>
> The side effect is the workers must be kept ignorant,
>
> of who and how they are exploited.
>
> "IN GOD WE TRUST" is written on all US money, because,
> without the GOD thingy,
>
> worker/slaves would resist making their leaders $$ POWERFUL $$...
>
> The Real God!  (The sinless one)  I dont forgive nothing!
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ ~
> Wise men stare at the unknown, and boldly! asks, WHY?
> Others... fall on their hands and knees, and start mumbling...
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~ ~
>
>             --- THE PAST ---
> http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion/Faiths_and_Practices/
>        http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/Full_Coverage/World/Religion_News/
>
>                   ---- THE FUTURE ----
>                   http://www.transhumanism.com/
>        (-C-I-S-)-Crystal-Information-Soulutions-(-C-I-S-)



   From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Creationism and its prevalence in the US
Date: 2000/04/25
Message-ID: <3906464A.6702791F@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>#1/1
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>
<3903AC0F.345644B3@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <8e16cu$jtn$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian-teen,alt.religion.christian.methodist,alt.religion
..christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.chr
istian.pentecostal,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy 

Oh, please! And the moon really is made of green cheese, too, right? Von
Daniken was proved to be a quack *years* ago in case you hadn't heard.
You really should ad the excellent book "Crash Go The Chariots" to your
library, on the shelf above your copy of "Chariots of the Gods".

john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"forum.wanadoo.fr" wrote:

> Several thousand years ago, all life on earth was created
> scientifically by an advanced alien civilization. They created us by
> complete mastery of Genetic Engineering and DNA ' In their own image'
> as described in the Bible. They are the ELOHIM, word from the Hebrew
> Bible which was wrongly translated by God, as Elohim is a plural in
> Hebrew (singular ELOHA) and means literally ' Those who came from the
> sky'. They decided to leave us progress alone and sent prophets at
> various times to help us out and leave traces of their creation.
> Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, ... 40 in all were all contacted 
> persons whom they gave advanced knowledge to show us how to love each
> others until we reach the age of science, where we could understand it
> all. They are at the origin of all the main religions.
>     In 1945, after the Hiro****ma bomb, we entered the era of the
>     Apocalypse 
> (Revelation in greek) and they decided to sent the last messenger, the
> one announced by all religions.Today we are advanced enough
> scientifically to finally understand the truth about our origins,
> without mystification, but rational understanding rather than
> believing. The 13th of December 1973, they encountered a french
> journalist, Claude Vorilhon, which they named Raël (which means
> messenger of the Elohim), and asked him to spread this message around
> the world and build an embassy in Jerusalem to welcome them soon. 
> http://www.rael.org

>
> "The Real God!" <Real...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> a écrit dans le message news:
> 3903AC0F.34564...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Blade wrote:
> >
> > > just wondered over to the new scientist web site and what do I
> > > find but 
> a
> > > rather good article on Creationism's popularity and prevalence
> > > almost exclusively in the US and not really in any other western
> > > country (essentially Europe). I suggest every one go and have a
> > > look at 
> > > http://www.newscientist.com/features/features.jsp?id=ns22352
I
> > > don't 
> know
> > > how long it will be up for, but its interesting non the less. It
> > > also 
> eludes
> > > to the destruction of the teaching of science in science classes
> > > by creationists and the active encouragement of children to not
> > > look at 
> things
> > > critically when it comes to evolution but instead disbelief it as
> > > flawed 
> and
> > > inaccurate as a representation of reality. I had no idea just how
> backward
> > > the US education system was becoming, very disturbing. Glad I'm
> > > safe in 
> the
> > > UK where American employers looking for scientists with a real
> > > education 
> now
> > > look to and are willing to pay lots of money to ;)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Blade ICQ#27537648
> > >
> > > Comparing religion to science is like comparing a molehill to a
> mountain!
> > >
> > > Change .con to demon<dot>co<dot>uk to send mail.
> >
> > --
> > The Real God!, thus spake: "IN GOD WE TRUST!"
> >
> > As with all Social Systems/Governments/Tribes/Kings ect...
> >
> > The government's, business's and religion's are one and the same.
> >
> > The US leader****p sup****ts religions because they make
> >
> > good workers, who make more ignorant children.
> >
> > The side effect is the workers must be kept ignorant,
> >
> > of who and how they are exploited.
> >
> > "IN GOD WE TRUST" is written on all US money, because,
> > without the GOD thingy,
> >
> > worker/slaves would resist making their leaders $$ POWERFUL $$...
> >
> > The Real God!  (The sinless one)  I dont forgive nothing!
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~
> > ~ Wise men stare at the unknown, and boldly! asks, WHY?
> > Others... fall on their hands and knees, and start mumbling...
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~
> > ~ 
> >
> >             --- THE PAST ---
> > http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion/Faiths_and_Practice
> > s/ 
> >        http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/Full_Coverage/World/Religion_New
> >        s/ 
> >
> >                   ---- THE FUTURE ----
> >                   http://www.transhumanism.com/
> >        (-C-I-S-)-Crystal-Information-Soulutions-(-C-I-S-)
> >
> >
> >



    From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Are trinitarians really "christian"?
Date: 2000/04/25
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>
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.pentecostal

Quit referring to trinitarians as polytheistic. Just because you don't
understand trinitarianism (and you *don't*) doesn't mean that we are
polytheistic (we're *not*) Again, and again, and again, and again, the
trinity aspect of God is one of the mysteries of the Bible. The Bible
says God is called Father in Genesis. The Bible also says God is called
the Holy Spirit right there in Genesis. John's gospel, first chapter,
says The Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word became
flesh (Christ Jesus). All three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit 
(*whatever* you wish to call them) are God. Three names, three different 
ministries (Father/Judge, Son/Savior, Spirit/Teacher-Indweller), one
God. 

And if you deny the "trinity" which name/ministry of God are you
denying? john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Rev. Steve Winter" wrote:

> "Russell  McDade" <rmcd...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >
> >Rev. Steve Winter wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >
> >Dear Rev. S. Winter, could you please explain the
> >following verse;
> >
> >Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man,
> >no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the
> >Father. 
> >
> >From the above verse I understand that God the Father
> >has some knowledge that God the Son does or didn't have.
> >Therefore I reason that there is 2 entities referred to in the
> >above verse.
>
> First of all, thank you for honestly affirming your polytheism.
> I wish more trinitarians were honest about their polytheism.
>
> To address your question, Jesus has a dual nature.  For example
> do you believe that the burning bush was omnipresent just because
> the omnipresent Jesus was in the bush?
>
> In this study I will attempt to explain how the son could pray to the
> father and still not be two separate gods (or persons). The key to
> understanding this is understanding "flesh" and "spirit":......
> Here, we see that God the Father of the old testament does NOT have
> flesh and bone (so consider also "The Right Hand" does not mean a big
> ole arm)..See, God is a Spirit and a spirit hath NOT flesh and bone.
> Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle
> me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
> John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that wor****p him must wor****p
> [him] in spirit and in truth....
>
> Also notice the im****tance of TRUTH in wor****ping God, We MUST know
> WHO we are wor****pping! God of the old testament came to earth in
> human form, he did NOT have blood to shed for anyone; sooooo he took
> on a human body and came to his people:......
>
> John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
> II Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the
> world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath
> committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
>
> In other words God came in the form of Christ, not a "second person"
> or "Jehovah Jr.", but God HIMSELF in a human body..the Lord of Glory
> himself....
>
> I Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for
> had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
>
> God did not send anyone else to "do the dirty work"; HE CAME HIMSELF
> and took on a life and then gave up that life for us!!
>
> I John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down
> his life for us...."
>
> God himself in a human body, but even then the Spirit of God was
> greater than the flesh of God..even God had to keep his flesh in
> subjection to his Spirit..It was not the flesh body of God that did
> the miracles, but rather the Spirit that was in the body...and, in the
> garden it was flesh praying to Spirit (not one god praying to another)
>
> John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father,  and the Father
> in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the
> Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
> John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne
> witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen
> his shape. 
>
> (The Father IN the son=The Spirit in the flesh)
>
> Matthew 13:17 {For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and
> righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and
> have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and
> have not heard [them].}
> Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed
> them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my
> beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
> Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art
> my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
> II Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
> when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is
> my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
>
> (Notice "IN WHOM" in each verse, the Father (spirit) was IN the son
> (flesh)). 
>
> John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and
> yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the
> Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
> John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father
> in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the
> Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.....
>
> Jesus Christ, Jehovah God in the flesh....Why is this so im****tant?!?
>
> Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, {The first of all the commandments
> [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:}
>
> Not three lords, not "three separate persons", ONE GOD: JESUS!!.....
>
> Rev. sTeve Winter
> --
> Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
> http://www.onenessapostolic.org
for Bible studies (text and audio)
> Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?



         From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Are trinitarians really "christian"?
Date: 2000/04/25
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Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.presby
terian,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.christnet,alt.bible.proph
ecy,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal 

John chapter 1 says The Word was with God, and the Word was God, and He
(Word) became flesh (Christ/God/Son0.
Genesis 1 says God/Father, and also mentions God/Holy Spirit.
If we have God/Father, God/Son, and God/Holy Spirit, we have One God, 3
ministries.

john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Bassett wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:21:20 GMT, g...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 (Glenn (Christian
> Mystic)) wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:40:53 GMT, mbas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 (Mark
> >Bassett) wrote:
> >
> >>On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:28:43 -0700, Lucifer Jones
> >><luciferjo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Either Jesus was wholly God or he was not.
> >>
> >>Jesus is both God and Man.
> >
> >On what do you base this ?
>
> The Bible.
> >
> >>Hard to understand? No one has EVER understood that with their human
> >>capacity. God alone can reveal the mystery of godliness to the mind
> >>and heart.
> >>Ask Him, he will...
> >
> >I did, He says Jesus is His son, much as we are His sons and
> >daughters.
>
> You are talking to someone other than God.
>
> -mwb



      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Creationism and its prevalence in the US
Date: 2000/04/25
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Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian-teen,alt.religion.christian.methodist,alt.religion
..christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.chr
istian.pentecostal,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy 

Oh, please! And the moon really is made of green cheese, too, right? Von
Daniken was proved to be a quack *years* ago in case you hadn't heard.
You really should ad the excellent book "Crash Go The Chariots" to your
library, on the shelf above your copy of "Chariots of the Gods".

john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"forum.wanadoo.fr" wrote:

> Several thousand years ago, all life on earth was created
> scientifically by an advanced alien civilization. They created us by
> complete mastery of Genetic Engineering and DNA ' In their own image'
> as described in the Bible. They are the ELOHIM, word from the Hebrew
> Bible which was wrongly translated by God, as Elohim is a plural in
> Hebrew (singular ELOHA) and means literally ' Those who came from the
> sky'. They decided to leave us progress alone and sent prophets at
> various times to help us out and leave traces of their creation.
> Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, ... 40 in all were all contacted 
> persons whom they gave advanced knowledge to show us how to love each
> others until we reach the age of science, where we could understand it
> all. They are at the origin of all the main religions.
>     In 1945, after the Hiro****ma bomb, we entered the era of the
>     Apocalypse 
> (Revelation in greek) and they decided to sent the last messenger, the
> one announced by all religions.Today we are advanced enough
> scientifically to finally understand the truth about our origins,
> without mystification, but rational understanding rather than
> believing. The 13th of December 1973, they encountered a french
> journalist, Claude Vorilhon, which they named Raël (which means
> messenger of the Elohim), and asked him to spread this message around
> the world and build an embassy in Jerusalem to welcome them soon. 
> http://www.rael.org

>
> "The Real God!" <Real...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> a écrit dans le message news:
> 3903AC0F.34564...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Blade wrote:
> >
> > > just wondered over to the new scientist web site and what do I
> > > find but 
> a
> > > rather good article on Creationism's popularity and prevalence
> > > almost exclusively in the US and not really in any other western
> > > country (essentially Europe). I suggest every one go and have a
> > > look at 
> > > http://www.newscientist.com/features/features.jsp?id=ns22352
I
> > > don't 
> know
> > > how long it will be up for, but its interesting non the less. It
> > > also 
> eludes
> > > to the destruction of the teaching of science in science classes
> > > by creationists and the active encouragement of children to not
> > > look at 
> things
> > > critically when it comes to evolution but instead disbelief it as
> > > flawed 
> and
> > > inaccurate as a representation of reality. I had no idea just how
> backward
> > > the US education system was becoming, very disturbing. Glad I'm
> > > safe in 
> the
> > > UK where American employers looking for scientists with a real
> > > education 
> now
> > > look to and are willing to pay lots of money to ;)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Blade ICQ#27537648
> > >
> > > Comparing religion to science is like comparing a molehill to a
> mountain!
> > >
> > > Change .con to demon<dot>co<dot>uk to send mail.
> >
> > --
> > The Real God!, thus spake: "IN GOD WE TRUST!"
> >
> > As with all Social Systems/Governments/Tribes/Kings ect...
> >
> > The government's, business's and religion's are one and the same.
> >
> > The US leader****p sup****ts religions because they make
> >
> > good workers, who make more ignorant children.
> >
> > The side effect is the workers must be kept ignorant,
> >
> > of who and how they are exploited.
> >
> > "IN GOD WE TRUST" is written on all US money, because,
> > without the GOD thingy,
> >
> > worker/slaves would resist making their leaders $$ POWERFUL $$...
> >
> > The Real God!  (The sinless one)  I dont forgive nothing!
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~
> > ~ Wise men stare at the unknown, and boldly! asks, WHY?
> > Others... fall on their hands and knees, and start mumbling...
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~
> > ~ 
> >
> >             --- THE PAST ---
> > http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion/Faiths_and_Practice
> > s/ 
> >        http://fullcoverage.yahoo.com/Full_Coverage/World/Religion_New
> >        s/ 
> >
> >                   ---- THE FUTURE ----
> >                   http://www.transhumanism.com/
> >        (-C-I-S-)-Crystal-Information-Soulutions-(-C-I-S-)
> >
> >
> >     From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: another Easter question
Date: 2000/04/25
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist

Why are you in here?
If you look, you are in a newgroup labeled, Christian.baptist.
We *can* document the Bible, both by the Dead Sea Scrolls and by the
commentaries of the 1st century, 2nd century, and early 3rd century
historians (disciples of the apostles).
To say 'they fabricated" is absurd and ignores the evidence that the
Jews were the keepers of the history and of the prophets. If anything
they wrote was found to be untrue, whether a lie or merely a mistake,
the author of the book was executed and his book burned.

Why don't you go someplace like alt.atheism, and leave the Christians
be? You *truly* aren't going to convert anybody.

john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

> In article <2M0N4.486$r21.25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, "Vernon O"
> <vern...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > pferdelieber <FreeSpe...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > news:FreeSpeech-2304002056080001@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Since crucifixion was the punishment for sedition, it is highly
> > > unlikely the two others crucfied with Jesus were thieves.
> > >
> >
> >
> > It is highly unlikely that you have a clue what you are talking
> > about. A.K.A. see above statement.
>
> Interesting response - but not very helpful
>
> You see there is a great deal that does point towards  who the real
> Jesus was - but Christians have a hard time handling it because it
> conflicts with the fantasy they have been brought up to wor****p.
>
> I know personally how gut wrenching realisation in these matters can
> be. I was brought up in this fantasy and had to come to terms with
> reality myself in my mid to late teens when the conflict between what
> I was supposed to "believe" and what was "bleeding obvious" - as Basil
> Fawlty puts it, became mentally tortuous.
>
> Matters such as the question of the "thieves" would be side issues
> except that they do point to the ideological nature of the Gospels and
> away from the (stupid) superstition that they are "God inspired"  or
> the "Word" of God, as fundamentalists would have it to pump up their
> ludicrous pomposity and dwindling authority.
>
> I think it is worth while trying to come closer to the truth - if
> possible - if only because the erroneous pagan doctrine of Paulism has
> long been at the moral core of Western Society.
>
> And it is failing us - as it has so frequently so done in the past.
>
> The Paulist fabrication contains within it seeds of major problems
> such as irrationality, prejudice against differing views through
> anathamising, abhorrence of analytical thinking and reasoning, hatred
> of "the other" and antisemitism.
>
> The Bible speaks of overthrowing the idols - the greatest of all -
> Paulism still stands.
>
> And christianity will not survive much longer if it cannot distance
> itself from an archaic pagan interpretation of Jesus of Nazareth
>
> Basically Vern you are comfortable in your delusion - that in actual
> fact is OK by me.
>
> But don't attack those of us who would rather stir ourselves from our
> own complacency and ask the question "what really happened?"



         From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Bible Translations
Date: 2000/04/25
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alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.bible,alt.christnet.bible,alt.relig
ion.apologetics,alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,alt.christnet.calvini
st,alt.religion.christian.baptist 

Well said, Data!
I for another one, can't comprehend how so many "alternatives" arose to
God except what He Himself has said, "since they refuse to believe the
truth, I sent them an infinite number of lies to believe, and they did."
I am paraphrasing, here, folks.

john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 DataRat wrote:

>      "It is amazing to me that people
>      would prefer that some alien
>      race created us"
>
>      Evolution, space aliens, pagan
>      deities, reality-is-a-dream...
>      ANYTHING but the God of the
>      Bible !
>
>      There being no theory too
>      outlandish, too implausible,
>      that it can not be accepted
>      in place of Special Creation
>      by the Lord of Hosts.
>
>      Another proof for the Doctrine
>      of Total Inability.   Men are
>      "slaves to sin" ( Romans 6:6
>      & 15, John 8:34  NASB, NIV,
>      cf 2 Peter 2:19, Hebrews 2:15 )
>
>      The DataRat



       From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Witnessing
Date: 2000/04/25
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist

Mr. Steve W:
You keep calling true Chrsitianity a cult. You, Steve, are the mindless
cultist. Just because the concept of God the Father, God the Son, and
God the Spirit is bigger than your puny brain and so you can't
understand it, doesn't mean it isn't true.
Genesis 1 tells us that There is God the Father and God the Spirit ("the
Spirit of God moved over the face of the water...") and John chapter 1
says The Word was with God, and the Word was God and He became flesh.
Any way you wish to consider those paasages, they tell us that there is
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Accept it. Why
must you continue to debate the reality of God. And if you look at the
title of the news group, this is Christian.baptist. which means that
those people to whom you are fuming about trinitarianism are
trinitarians. 

Go someplace else and get a life! You are the anti-Christ cultist, pal.
Not we trinitarians! You are wasting your time here!

john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Rev. Steve Winter" wrote:

> <soulwin...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >                       Witnessing in the 20th Century
> >
> >                                         Dan Corner
> >
> >Soul winning is a very im****tant and serious aspect of true
> >Christianity. 
>
> It is also very im****tant to trinity cults and other Satanic
> counterfeits of true Christianity.
>
> Matthew 23:15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for
> ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made,
> ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
>
> There is only one God and He is ONE person, not three, and his name is
> Jesus. Sadly, there are many who are not wor****ping the Jesus of the
> Bible, who, according to the scripture IS the everlasting Father.
> These poor souls are wor****ping a figment of carnal human imagination,
> a man made "Jesus", that is a separate person from God, or just merely
> a part of God. In their vain imagination they mold their "Jesus" to
> fit their personal concepts, they manufacture a fable of a "Jesus"
> that will just overlook unrepented sins and just take any and
> everything into heaven. 
>
> They confuse emotional titillations with spiritual activity...They
> prefer dewey eyed fables over the Word of God.
>
> An idol need not be a manmade "icon" or statue; a mental concept can
> also be an idol god, just as much as a statue of a golden calf. It has
> always been the carnal nature to manufacture a god that fit rather
> than measuring up to a true Godly standard.
>
> A person wor****ping the catholic trinity, might as well wor****p rocks,
> or goats, or dogs or trees; they are basing their religion on a
> figment of human imagination, rather than the God of the Bible.
>
> Malachi 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of
> Jacob are not consumed.
>
> Isaiah 45:6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from
> the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is
> none else. 
>
> Isaiah 45:21  Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel
> together:
> who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from
> that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a
> just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
>
> Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see
> him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth
> shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
>
> (Notice it says HIM not THEM)...
>
> Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,
> saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the
> Almighty. 
>
> (Jesus IS the Almighty)....
>
> Isaiah 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no
> saviour.
>
> (God came to earth to be the saviour)....
>
> Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take
> counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath
> told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God
> else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.
>
> (Trinity says there are three persons here)...
>
> Hosea 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and
> thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me.
>
> (God is the only savior)....
>
> John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and
> yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the
> Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
>
> (Of course Jesus IS the Father, come to be the saviour)...
>
> Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
>
> ("Which faith are you?" ever heard that?)...
>
> Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for
> ever. 
>
> (Jesus has always been Alpha and Omega)...
>
> Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and
> the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be
> called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father,
> The Prince of Peace.
>
> (This says that the child to be born is The Mighty God)
>
> Rev. sTeve Winter
>
> --
> Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
> http://www.onenessapostolic.org
for Bible studies (text and audio)
> Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?



       From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: The Struggle With Masturbation
Date: 2000/04/25
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist

There are two schools on this subject. There is the Calvinist, which
says that anything that is not specifically okayed in black and white in
the Bible is prohibited. Masturbation is cited as one example of this.
"It isn't natural" is another POV of the Calvinists.

Then there is the Martin Luther school, which says that anything that is
not specifically prohibited in black and white in the Bible is okay.
Like, God really does give us choices. When He silent, it means that He
doesn't care. He gives us freedom. As Dr. Luther pointed out, Jesus said
"I came, not to enslave you, but to set you free.:

I happen to be a follower of Luther on this point.

To analyze this issue just a bit more, we aren't told that masturbation
is okay, but we aren't .told it isn't, either.
On the other hand, from the Calvinist point of view, we aren't told that
cars are okay, so we may not drive cars. The New England sect (the name
escapes me) eschew cars, and we think that's funny! If we can't do
anything that is not in black and white, then we also can't use
computers, and I must rebuke you for being on one now! How dare you! We
also can't use phones, becuase there is no mention of phones in the
Bible, either. So even if you were allowed to use a computer (which you
aren't), you wouldn't be able to hook up to the internet, because phones
aren't allowed. I hope by now you get my drift. The issue of
masturbation falls into the same category with cars, phones, and
computers. 

If you let people restrict you according to other people's hangups, you
will *always* be able to find people who will *gladly* tell you what to
do If God didn't say "no", why let people do it for Him?

If you are married, then masturbation becomes an issue between your mate
and yourself. However, what is wrong with 1. masturbating together or 2.
masturbating each other? I wouldn't encourage anyone to masturbate
instead of *** with their mate, but that's another subject. Speaking of
married ***, there are also plenty of people who are willing to also
dictate what *** acts are appropriate within marriage, too. I've
actually heard some absurd people condemn oral ***, which we find in the
Song of Solomon, if you know what you're reading. 

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
john weatherly
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

> Dear Everyone,
>           I have struggled with controlling my urge to masturbate for
>           10 
> years, but I'm still trying to discipline myself to overcome it.  With
> Gods help and through devoted prayer, He will one day take this
> temptation out of my body.
>           I wonder, though, why the Bible stays so slient it.  Do you
>           think 
> perhaps that it implies masturbation as an alternative to fornication
> since the later is explicited forbidden.
>
> Any Help would be wonderful.
>
> God Bless Everyone!
>
> :)
> RHW5000



      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Are trinitarians really "christian"?
Date: 2000/04/25
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Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.presby
terian,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.christnet,alt.bible.proph
ecy,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal 

Glenn, you are a liar, and an anti-Christ!
john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:40:53 GMT, mbas...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 (Mark Bassett)
> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:28:43 -0700, Lucifer Jones
> ><luciferjo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >
> >>Either Jesus was wholly God or he was not.
> >
> >Jesus is both God and Man.
>
> On what do you base this ?
>
> >Hard to understand? No one has EVER understood that with their human
> >capacity. God alone can reveal the mystery of godliness to the mind
> >and heart.
> >Ask Him, he will...
>
> I did, He says Jesus is His son, much as we are His sons and
> daughters.
>
> >-mwb
>
> Glenn (Christian Mystic)



    From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Are trinitarians really "christian"?
Date: 2000/04/25
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alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.presby
terian,misc.education.home-school.christian,alt.christnet,alt.bible.proph
ecy,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal 

Thank you, Lucifer!
I don't like the name you use, but i must agree with your POV. Steve
Winter is VERY small minded, in that he refuses to believe what he
doesn't understand. We trinitarians believe in the tri-une God
(Father/Son/Holy Spirit) because the Bible mentions all three multiple
times, and calls all three God. Just because the small-minded Steve
Winter can't understand the mystery of God being 3 names/ministries, he
rejects the mystery of God, preferring a god who is small enough to put
in the box Steve Winter has prepared for him. 

Doesn't make it so!
john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Jones wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:14:16 -0400 in
> alt.religion.christian.pentecostal, Rev. Steve Winter
> <steve.win...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ingested a large dose of a controlled
> substance and decided to share with us the following:
>
> >"justin" <jus...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> spake thusly and wrote:
> >
> >>    My brother I don't mean to agrue but i must ask in how you 
> >>    believe who 
> >>was the Lord Jesus talking to when he said "My God, My God why has
> >>thou forsaken me."
> >
> >Who did you think it was?  Some of you trinity cultists are really
> >silly. 
>
> No sillier than you.
>
> I note that you failed to answer the question.  How typical of you.
>
> >
> >>and to whom did he pray in the garden and why did he always
> >>refer heaven as his father's house and not his own, why did he say
> >>he would sit at the right hand of his father? I don't mean to offend
> >>anyone but you qoute from the old testment before the Lord Jesus
> >>came to earth and there was none to sit by the father.
> >
> >In this post I will attempt to explain how the son could pray to the
> >father and still not be two separate gods (or persons). The key to
> >understanding this is understanding "flesh" and "spirit":......
>
> <snip>
>
> The same ol' "Dichotomy between flesh and spirit" argument even though
> this has been discredited time on end.  There is no evidence--even
> implicit evidence--that suggests that such a dichotomy exists.
>
> Either Jesus was wholly God or he was not.
>
> Your problem--and the problem with all modalists--is that you assume
> that since a thing is incomprehensible it is therefore false.  Lay
> your ego and arrogance aside for once.
>
> You will never understand the nature of the existence of God.  Such a
> being defies all existence by definition.  You've succeeded only in
> constructing a box that has no hope of holding God.
>
> -----
> LJ
>
> "Aw, boy.  Crying isn't going to get your dog back.  Unless your tears
> smell like dog food.  So you can sit here eating can after can of dog
> food until your tears smell enough like dog food to get your dog back,
> or you can do something about it." --Homer Simpson 



         From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: out of body
Date: 2000/04/25
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Hey! Pf, you know you are accompli****ng so much in here with your
mindless, atheistic, skeptic crap!
Why don't you take your crap elsewhere? We aren't interested!
john weatherly

pferdelieber wrote:

> In article <8dv3v8$th...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, Bookman
> <the_book...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> SNIP>
> > An interesting fact that I would like to mention at this point is
> > that about 22 years ago I remember seeing a film where these doctors
> > weighed a person that was dying and after that person had died (see
> > http://www.artbell.org/duncan.html
), hours later that body became
> > lighter for no apparent reason. The reason that I remembered that
> > fact was that just recently(March 2000) I met a nurse who is
> > studying for her masters in nursing and she also mentioned that it
> > was a documented fact that the body loses weight hours after death
> > and the reason for this is still a bit of a mystery. My best guess
> > for this mystery is that it is due to the spirit leaving the body
> > and that is something that I and hundreds of others also do have
> > first hand experience of. 
> >
> > I see and hear on TV and read on the internet and in books about
> > many other people who have had similar near-death experiences as I
> > have had and have met one person who related her vision that she had
> > had to me. These out of body experiences should not be actively
> > sought out after as there is a very real danger of being deceived by
> > these spirits into wor****pping the devil or in any case being turned
> > away from God. Relating from my own two experiences of my spirit
> > leaving my body and from what I've read on this matter this much I
> > can tell you which is if your spirit leaves your body then anything
> > you meet outside your body is more than likely from the devil's
> > kingdom especially if you find yourself going into a dark tunnel
> > first. 
> >
> > As the first time I experienced a out of body experience I also
> > experienced an inner body experience straight after I know that
> > these two events were different from each other and this inner body
> > experience was an amazing experience in itself. This inner body
> > experience is where I saw Christ and these visions(including the one
> > related to me which I am certain is an inner body experience) have
> > been written out for you below. ( If your wondering what it feels
> > like to have your spirit out of your body then the best way to
> > explain it is to say it's very similar to asking what the difference
> > is between being clothed and not clothed-your still who you are but
> > your just a bit more lighter. )
> >
> >SNIP
> >
> > I am still in a very dark tunnel, so dark and seemingly drowning in
> > despair. I knew a way out myself - taking things out of God's hands
> > and into my own hands. Then God the Father spoke to me in the
> > garden- "If you do that, I'll have to rearrange the table settings.
> > Take your place from the table reserved for the people of great
> > faith, and place you further down where the people of little faith
> > sit. Wouldn't you rather sit with friends you know intimately around
> > your table, than to have Me place you with complete strangers?
>
> These appear to me to be descriptions of the kind of disordered
> thinking associated with Schizophrenia. Your doctor should be
> consulted 
>
> Tell him what you feel you have been experiencing - it appears to be
> de-realisation and depersonalisation.
>
> Medication should fix it - Do it now
>
> There is a great deal of information on the net you can examine
> privately 
> >
> >



      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Dave Hunt's "Woman Rides a Beast"
Date: 2000/04/23
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist

Ummmm... I don't want to stick my neck out, here, but I've had similar
problems with Dave Hunt spouting. I confronted him myself, personally on
one occasion when he spoke at my church. He mentioned that he considered
acupuncture "Satanic" since we "don't know how it works" (we didn't
then), and its "origins are unknown" and, Dave believed, "steeped in
superstitution". I countered "it works". Then I pointed out that I had
just read a magazine article written by a physician in China that
documented his own life-long research into acupuncture and how it
actually works. Seems the ancient Chinese had a better grasp of human
physiology than some modern doctors/theologians/fakes (like Dave Hunt)
would like to believe. He said, to me, "yea, but I still don't like
where it came from. And that makes it occult." I countered that just
because he wasn't familiar with the source of acupuncture, that didn't
make it intrinsically "occult", and that Dave could / should better
educate himself before making such damaging pronouncements. He 
sputtered, "well, he'd look into that", but he "still thought it was
occult. We still don't know how it works." I asked him when he had last
taken an aspirin. He said he'd taken some recently. I said, "Then you're
practicing the occult, since we don't even now (back then, in the '70's)
know how aspirin works.
Dave is very opinionated, and he makes statements he can't back up. If
you have read much of his stuff, he tends to write to a certain
audience. And he also rehashes, to sell books.
He hands out some good information, but he sells it. And he's making a
living on it. Try to not take him too seriously. :) I can't tell you if
he misquoted, if he gave the wrong page # in the article, or what. But I
would not bother to try to document, since he doesn't bother to do so,
either. john weatherly

Johnny Hartner wrote:

> One of the sources of this book is inaccurate and I can't reach anyone
> at Dave Hunt Ministries to answer me on this.  On page 124 Hunt states
> that Pope Pius IX said that "...we [the Catholic Church] cannot
> recognize the government of America until it drops the principles of
> the Reformation and adopts the principles of The Roman Catholic
> Church."  Now, Hunt says this quote is from "Catholic World," Aug.
> 1871, pg. 755.  I've checked the microfilm and it's not on this page. 
> Anyone know where this quote might actually be from or how to get a
> response from the Dave Hunt Ministries? 

      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Jesus died on Wednesday
Date: 2000/04/23
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Don wrote:

> On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 05:03:01 -0700, John Weatherly
> <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> >ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> >ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha
> >ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> >ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> >ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha
> >ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> >ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> >ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha
> >ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> >ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha
> >ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha
> >ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 
> >
> >That  "stuff" below gave me quite a giggle.
> >You would re-write the Bible.
> >I predict that God will erase your name from the Book of Life!
>
> 1.  I didn't re-write the Bible

sure, you did. I see nothing in scripture that says this particular
Thurday was a "high day" or that this sabbath was the 2nd sabbath that
week. You are putting in detail to try to justify something you wish to
believe. My reference to you being erased from the Book of Life is from
Revelation. 

>
> 2.  You obviously believe in salvation by works

????? I see nothing in anything I said that indicates that I believe in
salvation by works. In fact, I do not. I believe in salvation by grace.
For by grace are you saved by faith. Eph. 2:5



>
> 3.  Why do you think Jesus was crucified on Friday?

I am not so sure that we can calculate the day He was crucified going
forward. But if we back up from Sunday, the day He rose, Sunday is day
one, Saturday is day two, Friday is day 1. I am not nearly as concerned
about what day He died as I am what day He rose. But which day either
took place is less im****tant to me than THAT He rose.
And I laugh more over the quibbling than over days or dates.
I am glad to see that I irritated so many of you. IT DOESN'T MATTER,
FOLKS. It matters that we wor****p the Risen Savior, not which day what
happened. 


>
> 4.  Nevermind, you are an idiot.

Thanks. But it takes one to know one, right? ;)
john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> D*
>
> >john weatherly
> >john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Don wrote:
> >
> >> Just a few thoughts for your creative juices...
> >>
> >> Jesus was crucified on Wednesday.  He was in the ground 72 hours. 
> >> The empty tomb was discovered in the Sunday morning darkness,
> >> before sunrise.
> >>
> >> There was a special day that week...Thursday, a "high day."
> >>
> >> John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that
> >> the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day,
> >> (for that sabbath day was an high day) besought Pilate that their
> >> legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
> >>
> >> The sabbath day spoken about here was Thursday of that week, not
> >> the regular Saturday sabbath.  There were two sabbaths that week.
> >>
> >> He was in the ground 3 days and 3 nights, seventy-two hours, from
> >> Thursday evening to Saturday evening.
> >>
> >> Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the
> >> whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three
> >> nights in the heart of the earth.
> >>
> >> He left the tomb on Saturday evening.  The empty tomb was
> >> discovered BEFORE the sun arose on Sunday.
> >>
> >> John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early,
> >> when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken
> >> away from the sepulchre.
> >>
> >> The tomb was ALREADY empty.
> >>
> >> Matt 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the
> >> temple of God, and to build it in three days.
> >>
> >> Matt 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while
> >> he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
> >>
> >> Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must
> >> suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief
> >> priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise
> >> again. 
> >>
> >> John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple,
> >> and in three days I will raise it up.
> >>
> >> The idea of "good Friday" and "Maundy Thursday" are more based in
> >> tradition than scripture.
> >>
> >> D*



      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Jesus died on Wednesday
Date: 2000/04/23
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist



Vernon O wrote:

> Don <calldonREM...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:7E8C4C34C74AB6B5.6783AD451B8E017B.F9A9B932F64BB33D@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> .. 
> > On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 05:03:01 -0700, John Weatherly
> > <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>

oh. And what did I say that brought you to that brilliant deduction. In
fact, I have been reading and studying the Bible since I can remember.
Over 40 years at last count.

john
john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> Which probably why he believes what he does and has never read the
> bible. 
>
> >
> > D*
> >
> >
> > >john weatherly
> > >john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >Don wrote:
> > >
> > >> Just a few thoughts for your creative juices...
> > >>
> > >> Jesus was crucified on Wednesday.  He was in the ground 72 hours.
> > >>  The empty tomb was discovered in the Sunday morning darkness,
> > >> before sunrise.
> > >>
> > >> There was a special day that week...Thursday, a "high day."
> > >>
> > >> John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation,
> > >> that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath
> > >> day, (for that sabbath day was an high day) besought Pilate that
> > >> their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
> > >>
> > >> The sabbath day spoken about here was Thursday of that week, not
> > >> the regular Saturday sabbath.  There were two sabbaths that week.
> > >>
> > >> He was in the ground 3 days and 3 nights, seventy-two hours, from
> > >> Thursday evening to Saturday evening.
> > >>
> > >> Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the
> > >> whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three
> > >> nights in the heart of the earth.
> > >>
> > >> He left the tomb on Saturday evening.  The empty tomb was
> > >> discovered BEFORE the sun arose on Sunday.
> > >>
> > >> John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early,
> > >> when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone
> > >> taken away from the sepulchre.
> > >>
> > >> The tomb was ALREADY empty.
> > >>
> > >> Matt 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the
> > >> temple of God, and to build it in three days.
> > >>
> > >> Matt 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said,
> > >> while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
> > >>
> > >> Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must
> > >> suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the
> > >> chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days
> > >> rise again. 
> > >>
> > >> John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple,
> > >> and in three days I will raise it up.
> > >>
> > >> The idea of "good Friday" and "Maundy Thursday" are more based in
> > >> tradition than scripture.
> > >>
> > >> D*
> >



         From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Jesus died on Wednesday
Date: 2000/04/23
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Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist

You're reading in things that aren't stated.
There isn't a word in Mark 16:1 that speaks of two prepratation days and
2 sabbaths.
There isn't a word in Luke 23:56 about there being 2 preparation days or
two sabbaths. Luke 23:56 only mentions one Sabbath. And the fact that
the women prepared their ointments and spices for the proper preparation
of Jesus' body in the tomb has nothing to do with "Preparation Day" that
preceeds Sabbath. You are TRULY stretching scripture to sup****t your
preconceptions. john weatherly

rstrats wrote:

> Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:56 sup****t the contention that there were
> 2 Preparation Days and 2 Sabbaths during the crucifixion week.
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com
The Internet's Discussion
> Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in
> Usenet - Free! 

      From: John Weatherly <john_weatherl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Subject: Re: Identifying marks of a Christian.
Date: 2000/04/23
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I certainly agree with most of your points, with some notable
exceptions. I am sorry I can't necesarily give you all the scriptural
references (I don't have my 10 Bibles with me these days), but I can
give you the principles, and perhaps you can do some more
study/research. 1. Real Christians study/live by the Word.
no fault here, except, even Paul said he was chief of sinners. We must
allow for man's humanity. And you are suggesting that you live perfectly
by the Word. I don't believe you. So you would set a standard that you,
yourself can't keep. This is called legalism. God came to earth in human
form and died in our place because we can't do it by ourselves. We are
now under a state of grace, where God's love fills in in our lives where
we don't/can't measure up. Sounds like you might make a better lawyer
than Christian. However, my lawyer is Christ, who the Bible says is ever
interceding on our behalf with the Father. In other words, God the
Father sees us sin, and He gets angry, and Satan is there at the throne,
pointing out our sin, and asking God for our blood. And then Jesus pipes 
in, "Well, Dad, I can't let you hurt John Weatherly!" And the Father
says, "Why not?!!!" And Jesus says, "Well, Dad, he's one of mine." And
the Devil scowls, and the Father says, "Ok! Good enough!"
I totally agree with #2. I don't believe any Christian who calls himself
one can NOT read and study the Word.
However! :) I believe in salvation by faith, period. Not salvation by
faith plus works. And since reading and studying are two works, I can't
accept them as required for salvation. I mean, the thief on the cross
didn't have a chance to read OR study the Bible. Yet Jesus promised him
his place in Heaven. #3 again, requires that we demonstrate our love for
each other. I understand that Ted Bundy, the mass murderer, accepted
Christ/professed that he did, before he died. He didn't get much
op****tunity to "demonstrate his love for anyone else", but I believe
that if he found Christ with a sincere heart, on death row, that he is
now in Heaven, as Christ promised. There are those out there who refuse
to believe that Ted Bundy could be saved after murdering all those
women. I believe that's for God to decide. It's His Heaven. And we are
His,not our own. I could go on, but I think you have probably gotten the
idea. You might also want to check out C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. I
refer you to this author/book because the man was a true genius who came
to a knowledge of Christ from a position of intellectual atheism.
And Mere Christianity is a classic treatise on the subject of the basic
requirements for being a Christian.
In Christ,
john weatherly

John Allen wrote:

> The Identifying Marks of Christians.
> What are the identifying marks of Christians? Read on and let me know
> what you think?
>
> 1/ Real Christians not only study God's Word but also live their lives
> by means of it. As James says they become doers of the Word.
> *** Rbi8  James 1:22-25 ***
> 22 However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving
> yourselves with false reasoning. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the
> word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural
> face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and off he goes and
> immediately forgets what sort of man he is. 25 But he who peers into
> the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this
> [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of
> the work, will be happy in his doing [it].
>
> 2/ Real Christians study God's Word. How can we become a doer of God's
> Word if we do not know what the Word is? If we really are Christians
> we will imitate the Bereans and study God's so that we can see what he
> requires of us.
> *** Rbi8  Acts 17:10-12 ***
> 10 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to
> Be·roe'a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the
> Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in
> Thes·sa·lo·ni'ca, for they received the word with the greatest
> eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to
> whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them became
> believers, and so did not a few of the reputable Greek women and of
> the men." 
>
> 3/ Real Christians are identified by the love they have for each
> other. We cannot be selective. We need to apply Jesus' following words
> to people of all races and colours. If the country where we live were
> at war with another country we would display our love for our
> Christian brothers by refusing to fight in the war against them.
> *** Rbi8  John 13:34-35 ***
>  35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love
>  among 
> yourselves."
>
> 4/ Real Christians have love for their neighbours. This is something
> that Jesus taught.
> *** Rbi8  Matthew 19:19 ***
> 19 Honor [your] father and [your] mother, and, You must love your
> neighbor as yourself."
> Notice what Jesus taught? We must love our neighbour as ourselves. If
> we have this love then we would not rip off our neighbour, exploit
> them. We would treat them in way that we would want to be treated
> ourselves. Who are our neighbours? Everyone. If you do not know whom
> your neighbour is then study Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan. If
> we have love for our neighbour the we do not steal his land. We do not
> treat him we contempt. This is what the Europeans did to the rest of
> the world. 
>
> 4/ Real Christians love their enemies. This is something that Jesus
> taught. If all people claimed to be Christians practiced this then
> many of the world 's problems would disappear. For example Northern
> Ireland. *** Rbi8  Matthew 5:43-48 ***
> 43 "YOU heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor and hate
> your enemy.' 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies
> and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove
> yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes
> his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon
> righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU,
> what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the
> same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary
> thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the
> same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly
> Father is perfect." How far should we go with our love for our
> enemies? Look at what the apostle Paul wrote.
> *** Rbi8  Romans 12:17-21 ***
> 17 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of
> all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable
> with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to
> the wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says
> Jehovah." 20 But, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is
> thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap
> fiery coals upon his head." 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the
> evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good."
>
> 5/ Real Christians look after their families. Christians would not
> produce a whole lot of illegitimate children and not look after them.
> In fact Christian should not commit fornication or adultery. Real
> Christians not only look after their children but also their aged
> parents. The Apostle Paul said this about people who do not take care
> of their family. *** Rbi8  1 Timothy 5:7-8 ***
>  8 Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and
> especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned
> the faith and is worse than a person without faith."
>
> 6/ Real Christians are no part of the world. They do not have anything
> to do