And I don't "answer" your nonsense because there's truly no point.
snip
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: Is the gift of Tongues for the church today?
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 06:13:27 -0700
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 01:09:48 -0400, "Sugien" <dinosoft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>
>"john w" <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:2hcgc2ljonnpc916eigm56qemhlggbgocs@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> x-no-archive: yes
>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:51:24 -0400, "Sugien" <dinosoft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
>> article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>> author
>>>
>>>"john w" <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>news:bvjdc2he026mvk1g2hn9udi295k6crrq4i@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 00:01:13 -0400, "Sugien" <dinosoft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> copyright 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of
>>>> this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent
of
>>>> the author
>>>>>
>>>>>"Bible John" <john.doggett@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>news:1153783837_110217@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>> http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Theological/sign_gifts.htm
>>>>>>
><snip for space>
>
>>>> I thought both "preachers" speak in tongues?
>>>>
>>>It is not for me to say whether they proclaim to speak in tongues or
even
>>>the *unknown* tongue which is spoken of in the bible.
>>
>> On the contrary! We ARE taught to know the gospel, so that we aren't
>> fooled! (Galatians 1)
>>
>
>What has that to do with my answer? I was saying that I am not familiar
>with any of the named people to comment on whether or not they do
anything
>in general let alone anything in specific. It would be much like your
>asking me what I think of the wallpaper in President George Bush's
summer
>how is like. My having never seen it , I of course could not comment on
it.
>
>> If you don't know the Bible, if you don't know what the prophets,
>> Jesus, and the apostles taught, you're gonna get fooled!
>
>Agreed
>
>>
>> (you've been fooled)
>
>Not in the least
>
>>
>> And there is no "unknown tongue". The reference to "unknown tongue" is
>> Paul's explanation of Acts 2, in which the gift that is given is that
>> the speaker is speaking a tongue
>> (German/French/Latin/Spanish/Czech/Latvian) that the speaker has not
>> learned.
>
>You may see it that way; but I disagree; because if it were as you say
then
>much of 1Cor would not make much sense.
>
>>
>> The language is "unknown" to the one speaking it, but understood by
>> the person being spoken to.
>
>The language in acts 2 was an unknown tongue also; but it was the pure
>language of God, and each person there heard it in their own native
>language.
>
>>
>>
>> Let me ask you a
>>>question,
>>
>> Certainly.
>>
>> What do you think the unknown tongue is?
>>
>> See above. Unfortunately, this phrase "unknown tongue" has become a
>> catch phrase for all sorts of false teaching. If we don't understand
>> _______, then aren't we opening the door for Satan and 10,000 false
>> teachers to insert all sorts of false teachings?
>
>Satan doesn't need us to open any door for him, he is quite capable of
>opening them for his self
You changed the issue. I said that when we don't understand something,
and we pretend, we open doors for Satan, whether we NEED to, or
whether we INTEND to.
You then CHANGED the point to, "Satan doesn't need us..." That was
not what I said, and in fact was a different point entirely.
Please try to stay focused! You don't HAVE to be ALWAYS RIGHT about
EVERYTHING.
>>
>> Therefore, where we find "uncertain teaching" let's redouble our
>> efforts to dig deeper into SCRIPTURE and NOT "experience" to determine
>> what the BIBLE has to say, and NOT necessarily "Pastor Lester".
>>
>> In the case of "tongues", teaching could not be more clear.
>
>It has been clear to me for some time, as I explained.
I am suggesting that you may be VERY confused. And you may also be
utterly unaware that you are confused.
If in fact, the teaching you subscribe to is of Satan (as I maintain
it is), why would he want you to KNOW you have been mislead by him?
He wouldn't!
And I am saying that-- if you profess to being a MATURE, knowledgeable
Christian, you must be open to correction.
You aren't.
>>
>>
>> I am of the opinion that
>>>it could possibly be an angelic language;
>>
>> #1 I am curious why you disrespect the Bible by typing it lower case.
>
>How do you possibly see typing the *word* bible in lower case as
disrespect?
In English, proper names, like proper nouns, are capitalized.
>It is the *contents* of the bible that is im****tant and now how we type
the
>word. Are you aware that some will not even write the word *God* for
fear
>of disrespect someone may take the written name of God and disrespect it
by
>burning it or throwing it into the garbage or something?
And it should be sufficient to tell you that you have offended me.
"If eating meat in your brother's presence causes your brother to
stumble (offends him), then eating meat in his presence is a sin, and
you must not do it!"
I have just told you that you have offended me, and you argue.
That is called "apostasy", and it is common among Pentecostals to
believe that they must ONLY be concerned with offending those with
whom they AGREE about "signs'.
How are you going to convince me that you are right if you so casually
offend me?
I would NOT follow such "Christianity!"
You could call my mother a whore. I could say, "Don't do that! That
is offensive."
You could then reply, "Why should I care if you are offended? Your
mother IS a whore!"
>
>>
>> #2 What is this "angelic language?" I see no "angelic language in the
>> Bible. I see one REFERENCE to an "tongue of angels", but it is a
>> metaphor, nothing more.
>
>The uknown tongue is the pure language of God spoken of in the bible,
that
>says that God will return to us the pure language of God.
Reference.
>
>Zephaniah 3:8 ¶Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day
>that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the
nations,
>that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation,
even
>all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire
of my
>jealousy.
>9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all
>call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
And if you have not up til now seen my plea to others, do not post to
me in the KJV.
>
>> Why would God need a "special language" with which to communicate with
>> His angels? Is telepathy broken?
>
>See above
You didn't answer me. And you are also referring to a metaphorical
passage.
And what
>>
>> And if it's a "language of angels", why are YOU speaking it?
>
>Where do you see that I have *ever* claimed to have *ever* spokenin
tongues?
>>
>> It's a "language of angels"; you are now admitting to using something
>> that doesn't belong to you!
>
>See above
>
>>
>> You may as well tell me, "I'm driving my neighbor's Rolls Royce."
>> Why ?
>> Does your neighbor know?
>>
>
>See above
>>
>> but with the lack of more about it
>>>in the bible, I am left with only believing it could *possibly* be an
>>>angelic language.
>
>8 ¶Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise
up
>to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may
>assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my
>fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my
>jealousy.
>9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all
>call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
ZEP 3:8 Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD,
"for the day I will stand up to testify.
I have decided to assemble the nations,
to gather the kingdoms
and to pour out my wrath on them--
all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed
by the fire of my jealous anger.
ZEP 3:9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples,
that all of them may call on the name of the LORD
and serve him shoulder to shoulder.
Interesting how the words "pure language" disappear when one looks in
a different translation!
Seems like Pentecostals depend a LOT on an obscure dialect!
>
>>
>> AGAIN, you need to KNOW what you are talking about. Guessing is
>> Satan's territory!
>
>I *never* guess, I search, and cross refferance and study, and pray for
>understand before and after I search, and cross refferance and study;
but I
>*never* guess about the word of God
Oh, but you do!
You are even quoting an ancient language (KJV) because ONLY IN IT do
you find "the right wording".
>>
>> It could also be a form of the pure language promised to
>>>be given to man in the end time.
>>
>> Reference?
>Zephaniah 3:8 ¶Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day
>that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the
nations,
>that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation,
even
>all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire
of my
>jealousy.
>9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all
>call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
ZEP 3:8 Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD,
"for the day I will stand up to testify.
I have decided to assemble the nations,
to gather the kingdoms
and to pour out my wrath on them--
all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed
by the fire of my jealous anger.
ZEP 3:9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples,
that all of them may call on the name of the LORD
and serve him shoulder to shoulder.
AGAIN, no reference WHATEVER to "pure language".
You simply must try TOO hard to get the "Bible" to say all the right
things with which to sup****t your false teaching!
>
>
>>
>> I have however *not* saying any of those
>>>you mention using said unknown tongue. What is you take on it?
>>
>>
>> See above.
>>
>> I find my language (English/American) quite adequate. And since God
>> created all human languages, and knows all human languages (He seems
>> equally capable of speaking to my Chinese Christian friends in
>> Chinese)
>
>I think we were discussing the tongues and or uknown tongues spoken of
in
>the NT and not today?
But we can't agree on the MEANING of "unknown tongue." I pointed out
to you that if I haven't ever learned Mandarin Chinese, then for ME,
Mandarin is "an unknown tongue", and if God gave me that language with
which to minister to a Mandarin speaker, I'd be speaking an "unknown
tongue" that is-- in fact-- NOT "unknown", but IS "unknown" to ME!
And there would STILL be absolutely NO need for an "interpreter" since
the person to whom I am "speaking in tongues" (the REAL kind) is the
"interpreter."
You have these lofty NOTIONS, yet when I apply LOGIC and common sense
and REAL WORLD examples to what you are PREACHING, you get lost!
>>
>> I see no reason why God needs to "communicate in an unknown language"
>> or in a "heavenly language" or in a "language of angels."
>
>As what 2COR says it is for a sign to the unbeliver
But you just got done saying that you speak in "the unknown tongue."
Do you use that with "unbelievers", when you don't even know that they
are in your midst?
And if the language isn't understood by YOU, how do you know you
aren't cursing God in Swahili?
>>
>> You have given me no earthly reason, and you have given me no
>> scripture.
>>
>
>I have given you plenty, if you chose to read it.
I have read it, and it does not apply to the point. You keep giving
me passages that merely prove MY point.
Meaning, you are schooled in "Pentecostal" "proof texts", but you are
NOT schooled in the Bible.
I am.
>
>> You have given me "seems to me."
>>
>>
>> Not acceptable.
>>
>> What IS acceptable is, "it seems to God!"
>>
>As is shown by his words which I have given you reverences to:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I truly think we are done!
I am wasting YOUR time, because you are not interested in any point of
view but your own. You are wasting MY time, because you are not
interested in any point of view but your own.
AGAIN, show me a sign,
and I will believe!
You PREACH "signs", but when it comes time to SHOW signs, you are
driving down the highway with your gas gauge on EMPTY.
Sadly, what you have not gotten YET is that I am almost 60, I have
NEVER spoken in tongues (nor have you), I have NEVER been slain in the
Spirit (nor have you), I have NEVER heard the sound of the mighty,
ru****ng wind (nor have you)
and yet, if you get to Heaven, I will be there, too.
john w
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.
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Subject: Re: Is the gift of Tongues for the church today?
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:47:21 -0700
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:22:12 -0400, "Sugien" <dinosoft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>
>"john w" <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:d0cgc2teh8nvls877479tmomrtnajdsbbn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> x-no-archive: yes
>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:02:29 -0400, "Sugien" <dinosoft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
>> article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>> author
>>>
>>>"john w" <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>news:f4kdc2pjjajafb55tvtqvsubb0ur9hnm6h@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 06:04:07 GMT, "Songzster" <beethoven@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> copyright 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of
>>>> this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent
of
>>>> the author
>>>>>
>>>>>"Sugien" <dinosoft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>news:96adneHxWtEWCljZnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bible John" <john.doggett@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:1153783837_110217@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>> http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Theological/sign_gifts.htm
>>>>>>>
>
><big snip for bandwith>
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then why does Paul ALSO say, "tongues then are for NONbelievers, not
>>>> for believers?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the passage to which you refer, Paul is REBUKING The Corinthians!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Don't you have that backwards?
>>
>> NO.
>>
>> As someone else just pointed out recently, typically, the first
>> mention of a subject is typically the "model", unless subsequent
>> mentions are RADICALLY different.
>>
>> When the apostles/disciples spoke in tongues at Pentecost, they spoke
>> for the benefit of NON-believers who were visiting Jerusalem.
>>
>> They were not edifying EACH OTHER. They attracted a crowd by speaking
>> in a dozen languages simultaneously, and then when they had their
>> crowd of THOUSANDS, Peter preached the gospel to the CROWD OF
>> UNbelievers.
>>
>>
>> Paul is saying it is *for* believers because
>>>if non-believers come in and all are speaking in tongues they would be
>>>thought mad.
>>
>> Show me that passage!
>
>
>I did but for what ever reason you refused to read it and put your sig
line
>*before* the verse that says it: see below or look up this verse;
however
>here it is again:
>
>1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into
one
>place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are
>unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
I saw it! I didn't comment because
#1 it was not / is not relevant to the point
#2 it was a REBUKE not an instruction.
Paul is saying, "should 300 of you gather together, and all 300 of you
begin speaking in tongues to amuse each other, and then some come in
who aren't believers, how is God edified? How are the unbelievers
edified?
They aren't!
You have, essentially, proved MY point!
>
>
>>
>> What you ARE saying is that is how you are UNDERSTANDING what is said.
>> That is NOT what is being said.
>
>I believe it says what I said, maybe you were led to a different
As I said, you have just made MY point. Tongues are given (WERE given)
as a sign to the NON believers (Acts 2)
>interpretation.
And you have NOT YET answered me.
Who "interpreted" in Acts 2?
No interpreter was NEEDED, which was Paul's point that YOU MISSED in
your quote!
1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together
into one
place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are
unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
YOU are pointing to "the need for an interpreter!" I am saying, "show
me the "need for an interpreter" in the Acts 2 passage!
The passage in 1 Cor 14 is a REBUKE!
sometimes two different people will be led to see two
>different things from the exact same verse.
Yes, but NOT two OPPOSITE things. You are now telling me what you
have been TAUGHT.
I am saying, "for goodness sake, EXAMINE THE TEXT!"
Acts 2 is the "example" or "model" passage for future instances of
"speaking in tongues."
There WAS NO NEED FOR AN INTERPRETER because those to whom the
apostles "spoke in tongues" UNDERSTOOD!
Why would the RECIPIENTS
of a message
IN TONGUES require an
INTERPRETER?
You aren't getting it!
I think that is because the
>holy spirit knows that some need milk and some meat. I have however
read a
>passage and thought it said one thing and then months or years later saw
>something entirely different.
Do you see it YET?
>What is being said is that speaking in tongues is for non-believers as a
>*sign* but to be *used* by believers as a tool to be used to speak
directly
>to God.
That may be your INTERPRETATION (mis-interpretation), but that is NOT
what is being said!
If there is no one in the congregation who is a non-believing German
speaking person, why would God give me the gift of speaking German?
And how do YOU know, when you hear what SOUNDS TO YOU LIKE GIBBERISH,
that the person is ACTUALLY SPEAKING A LANGUAGE?
Because someone TOLD you?
Paul is speaking of the unknown tongue or the perfect language of
>God;
What "unknown tongue?" We've already discussed that.
What "perfect language of God?"
YOu are now speaking gibberish.
because speaking in tongues in general is speaking to a crowd of many
>different languages and each person understanding in their native
language.
NO!
That is NOT what happened at Pentecost!
And it is PRECISELY this NONSENSE you are talking that turns so many
nonbelievers away from the "rubbish" of "Christianity."
Why must you have MAGIC when there is no magic?
Why must you INVENT miracles?
I have experienced and seen MANY miracles in my 60 years, and I have
NEVER spoken in tongues or "prayed in tongues" nor do I know anyone
who has.
And if the sign gifts are for today, show me one!
>>
>> And you are further confusing the issue by not understanding the
>> IRONIC REBUKE of 1 Cor 12 and 13.
>
>Paul is admoni****ng them that if unbelievers are present it is better to
not
>speak in the unknown tongue (unless there be an interpreter) as the
verse
>just before 12 shows:
>11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto
him
>that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian
unto
>me.
>12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek
that ye
>may excel to the edifying of the church.
>13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he
may
>interpret.
>
>>
>> But he does say that speaking in tongues is for a *sign* to
>>>unbelievers;
>>
>> Yes! In other words, "speaking in tongues IS FOR A SIGN TO
>> UNBELIEVERS."
>>
>>
>> You have literally been so brainwashed that you are stumbling over
>> your VERY OWN WORDS!
>
>No;
YES!
NOTHING you have typed / said in this post has made any sense, other
than when you agreed with me.
And the ONE VERSE you posted agreed with me!
but you would seem to be having a hard time understanding what I am
>trying to say.
Why would you say that? Are you of the understanding that-- if I just
UNDERSTOOD YOU-- I'd agree with you?
What makes you believe that you're the first mis-taught Pentecostal
I've dealt with?
I get to typing so fast and my thoughts race ahead faster
>then my fingers can keep up with sometimes
Try slowing down and composing yourself. The nice thing about
computers and the Internet is that I can get up and stretch my legs
and go visit my friend (just got back from a 2 hr visit), and this
post is sitting here, waiting for me.
I can even open half-a-dozen windows, my Bible, and my e-mail, and
this window sits here, waiting.
that I put two thoughts together
>that are not my intention,
Perhaps I understand better than you do!
;-)
so if your not understanding me, it is my fault
>and not your; but I am most certainly not stumbling over my very own
words
>which you chose to shout about.
I didn't shout. I capitalize for emphasis.
>
>>
>> but that speaking in tongues serves the believer.
>>
>> AGAIN, show me that text.
>
>I showed it several times but here it is again:
>22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to
them
>that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not,
but
>for them which believe.
My point is that you are missing Paul's point.
And real tongues do not need an interpreter.
If you are Swedish, and I am given the gift of Swedish, and I speak to
you in your tongue (and I don't know Swedish), why do we need an
interpreter? I am speaking to you "in tongues" (the REAL kind), and
you are the interpreter for yourself!
And I can't think of one single solitary reason that we need to "pray
in tongues'.
>
>It is showing that it is for a sign *which* serves the unbeliever by
giving
>him a sign. In other words speaking in tongues serves the unbeliever by
>showing them a sign to point them to belief in God by showing them one
of
>the gifts of God.
Why do you think that if you say the same thing 15 times, I'll agree
when I didn't agree the first 14 times?
And-- AGAIN-- show me a genuine sign, and I will believe.
>
>>
>> It simply isn't there. And the text you ARE referring to DRIPS with
>> sarcasm.
>
>Where you see sarcasm I see only paul teaching
AGAIN, show me a genuine sign, and I will believe.
If you cannot show me a genuine sign... then YOU must accept the
CONCEPT that YOU may be WRONG.
And if you admit that you are wrong-- or that you MIGHT be..
you won't die and go to hell, and the ground won't open and swallow
you.
You might even GROW a little!
How about trying it?
How about saying, right here, right now,
"Yes, John! I COULD be wrong!"
>
>> If tongues are UNDERSTOOD by those who hear them (Acts 2) why would
>> ANYONE need an INTERPRETER?
>
>For the uknown tongue
What "unknown tongue" ?
You keep saying "the unknown tongue". Show it to me. I explained to
YOU that if I don't know a certain language, then it's "unknown" to
me.
; becaue I doubt if someone there is visiting from
>heaven that speaks the pure language of God.
Oh dear God!
You type words that have NO meaning!
What is "the pure language of God?"
Why would omnipotent, omniscient God need words?
AGAIN, is His mental telepathy broken?
>
>>
>> The person INTERPRETING is the AUDIENCE!
>
>No else Paul would not be admoni****ng them that if someone speaks in the
>uknown tongue the must need an intepreter or else the unbeliever would
think
>them mad. You are not going to ask me to show you verse 14:23 again
are
>you?
We are going around in circles, and you are refusing to even CONSIDER
an alternative interpretation!
>>
>> Show me the "interpreter" in Acts 2!
>
>No need because the unknown tongue was not being spoken.
What "unknown tongue?"
This is TRULY turning into a waste of time! Which is a sin!
john w
snip
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.
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Subject: Re: Is the gift of Tongues for the church today?
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:22:44 -0700
Message-ID: <88bhc2h9cjb8rvflkokg76qt02i6j2cgal@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:36:47 -0400, "Sugien" <dinosoft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>
>"john w" <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:gcbgc2h0lbtgo43dupb646t52smqo66f4d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> x-no-archive: yes
>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:28:47 -0400, "Sugien" <dinosoft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
>> article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>> author
>>>
>>>"john w" <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>news:8kefc252rdmll2s312r3qfpdvatnb7iuku@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:57:24 GMT, "Songzster" <beethoven@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
>>>> article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>>>> author
>>>>>
>>>>>"john w" <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>news:lq6fc2lhkpf2j1pgnb5aa68jofc5gt2hru@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 06:20:50 GMT, "Songzster"
<beethoven@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>He also says he will pray with understanding AND with the Spirit -
and
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>he will sing with understanding AND with the Spirit - thus one can
>>>>>>>pray
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>sing in the flesh using their native tongue, but praying and
singing
>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>the Spirit involves something other than understanding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are AGAIN misinterpreting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every time I bow my head and pray, "Lord, bless this meal", I am
>>>>>> praying with my Spirit.
>>>>>
>>>>>That IS NOT what Paul says. What he says VERY PLAINLY is that there
is
>>>>>a
>>>>>difference between praying "with the Spirit" and "praying with
>>>>>understanding." Your argument is with Paul, not me.
>>>>
>>>> My argument is with your misunderstanding of what Paul said and
meant.
>>>>
>>>> 1CO 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> *** 19 But in the church I would rather speak
>>>>
>>>> five intelligible words to instruct others
>>>>
>>>> than ten thousand words in a tongue.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I need no 'other tongue."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thus - if tongues have ceased, we are no longer capable of singing
or
>>>>>>>praying "with the Spirit"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Says who?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have NO CLUE what you are talking about! You merely parrot the
WOF
>>>>>> charlatans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They have no clue either!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1CO 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they
>>>>>> will cease;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prophesy (the ability to see the future, as Bible prophesy does,
and
>>>>>> the gift the apostles used to write the New Testament) "will
cease."
>>>>>> When the New Testament was completed (in the 1st C), the "gift of
>>>>>> prophesy" ceased.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>This is an interpretation, a common one, but an interpretation of
and by
>>>>>man/men nonetheless.
>>>>
>>>> It's as valid as anything you have come up with, or that the WOF
>>>> movement has come up with, and it fits the scripture, and it
"works."
>>>>
>>>> In my almost 60 years, I have attended perhaps a dozen different
>>>> "Pentecostal" churches, and I have YET to hear one single incident
of
>>>> anyone speaking in tongues.
>>>>
>>>> What I DID hear was a lot of babbling.
>>>>
>>>> (and BTW, there is a lot more to prophecy than you
>>>>>state.)
>>>>
>>>> There are two types of prophesy mentioned in the Bible. You confuse
>>>> the two.
>>>>
>>>> The type of prophesy that is a special gift (a "sign" gift) was
given
>>>> TO THE APOSTLES to use to write the Bible.
>>>>
>>>> The other kind of prophesy that is mentioned simply means
"preaching".
>>>>
>>>> There is no other.
>>>>
>>>> And Paul said-- and history has proved-- that the prophesy involved
in
>>>> writing the Bible-- is LONG gone.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Nowhere else in scripture does "perfect" refer to scriptures or
"Canon."
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who is HONEST spiritually can do the timeline.
>>>>
>>>> Something-- SOMETHING -- PERFECT came AFTER Paul wrote the first of
>>>> the epistles, and AFTER the Holy Spirit came. Since the Holy Spirit
>>>> came in Acts 2, the "perfect" cannot refer to the Holy Spirit.
>>>>
>>>Are you referring to:
>>>
>>>1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
>>>10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part
>>>shall
>>>be done away.
>>>
>>>Are you saying this is referring to the bible coming? and not the
return
>>>of
>>>Jesus?
>>
>> Precisely!
>>
>> The Bible fits the prophesy! "When the perfect (Bible) comes (is
>> complete/ the writing of it finished), the imperfect (sign gifts:
>> tongues/knowledge/prophesy) shall pass away.
>>
>> And note, "when I was a child (baby Christian), I spoke as a child
>> (tongues); when I became a man (mature Christian/"maturity" shouldn't
>> take over 5 or 10 years), I put away the childish things (speaking in
>> tongues/signs)
>>
>> Note that Paul is saying that this cessation has ALREADY TAKEN place.
>>
>> "When I BECAME a MAN, I PUT AWAY childish things.' Past tense.
>>
>> By the time Paul wrote 1 Cor 13, the sign gifts had already ceased.
>>
>>
>> You are aware that in Paul's day the old testament already existed
>>>correct?
>>
>> ??????
>>
>> Are YOU aware that Jesus BEGAN His ministry by going to the TEMPLE and
>> reading the Old Testament scrolls?
>>
>> Have you done any reading on exactly how and when the NT came into
>>>existence?
>>
>> I know that there are several different traditions regarding this.
>> I also know that the apostles knew that they were writing scripture,
>> and that before the end of the 1st C (that's like between 30 AD and 99
>> AD), they were ALREADY circulating the different (books/letters),
>> meaning the Bible was being WIDELY read in "tract" form in the 1st C.
>>
>> Done any reading on the council at Nicea? Have you read about
>>>Marcus's Eraser. Have your read any of the texts that *did not* make
it
>>>into our present day NT?
>>
>> I am not going to even get into this discussion.
>>
>>
>> Are you aware that the last book of the NT only
>>>made it in by *one* vote? Those references are part of the reading I
have
>>>taken into consideration along with reading the bible and as such I
can
>>>only
>>>conclude that the above referenced NT verses if they *are* what you
are
>>>referring to would be talking about when Jesus comes back and not
about
>>>the
>>>bible.
>>
>>
>> What I am saying is that the book of 1 Cor was in WIDE circulation in
>> the 1st Century AD, and the CHURCH of THAT day was WELL aware of
>> Paul's teaching CENTURIES before any "Nicean Council" made any
>> "decisions" or "canonized" any books.
>
>Are you aware that the letters of Paul were correspondence sent to the
>various churches they are named for?
Of course! If you are a "Johnny-come-lately", I am one whose pastors
these past 50 + years have been NOTED scholars (Bible translators all)
I doubt if you could tell me much
(other than in the original languages/I have NO gift for languages)
that I don't already know.
I have MANY times had people comment that my list of pastors reads
like a "Who's Who" of 20th and 21st C Christian Theologians.
As such they were *not* read as
>scripture,
Say your "sources", and my sources would not agree. This precise issue
has been discussed /debated at more than one church, and in more than
one SEMINARY.
Believe me, the writings of the apostles (those that survive) were
CHERISHED, and they were understood as inspired. And they were passed
around.
and only read by those they were sent to.
Also not true. There are 1st and 2nd C copies of MANY of the mms ALL
OVER the Middle East.
It was not until after
>Pauls death that his letters were read by people other then those to
whom he
>sent them.
Not so. The letters were merely MORE cherished and more protected and
MORE prolifically copied after the deaths of the authors/apostles.
>>
>> Are you then saying that there wasn't a collection of SCRIPTURE (OT or
>> NT) until Rome said so?
>
>No, of course not.
There you go then! And CERTAINLY the first Hebrew Christians-- those
who had been CUSTODIANS of the scriptures (OT) for HUNDREDS of years--
understood the significance of the apostolic letters even if the Greek
converts did not.
And bear in mind, that in the 1st C, 9 of 10 of the elders (throughout
Christendom) were either apostles, or 1st line (1st descendant)
students of the apostles. The Greeks only became "elders"
(pastors/deacons/associate pastors) when they had become as
knowledgeable as the apostles and their immediate descendants.
Jesus read from the OT, in the temple; but the NT as we
>know it today was not formalized
Formalized, schmormalized!
I didn't say the whole thing was bound and 10 million copies printed!
I said that NUMEROUS COPIES of the various epistles were circulated as
quickly as Christian scribes could copy those epistles. And it might
take a year or two for a Jew to copy an "Old Testament" (44 books). It
certainly didn't take a year or two for a Christian scribe to copy a
single letter.
with the books we know today until Constine
>and the council at Nicea in the 4th century bce.
All that means is that 100 4th C "churches" got together in the 4th C
and "decided to make this book official!" "Now," they asked one
another, "what books should we "put the OFFICIAL STAMP of approval
on?"
Don't believe for one nano-second that God didn't guide those men to
pick the books He had already picked!
You give a handful of men too much credit for God's work!
Are you aware that the
>Catholic NT has two more books then the Christian bible?
In the NT?
?????
What are they?
I just looked in my Roman Catholic Bible and I don't see ANY "extra"
books in the NT!
Do you know the "New American Bible?" THAT's the RCC "Bible" in
"Modern English".
Mine has the same # of books in the NT that my NIV has!
Before the council
>at Nicea there were several times more books being circulated and read
then
>what Constine and *his* council at Nicea ended up putting in.
I do not subscribe to any churches that teach that view.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Bible didn't need any man to authorize it.
>>
>Of course not.
Then we are going in circles!
:-(
john w
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.
baptist,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,free.christians
Subject: Re: Is the gift of Tongues for the church today?
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:58:17 -0700
Message-ID: <0hahc2l49kuh02g053upph3usijmffen43@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:45:20 GMT, Bible Bob <biblebob@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 19:48:38 -0700, john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>x-no-archive: yes
>>On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:43:22 GMT, Bible Bob <biblebob@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>wrote:
>> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
>>article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>>author
>>>On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 09:41:14 -0700, john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>>On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 06:46:21 GMT, Bible Bob <biblebob@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>wrote:
>>>> copyright 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of
>>>>this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
>>>>the author
>>>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:18:12 -0700, "Bible John"
>>>>><john.doggett@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Brother Weatherly I would appreciate a moment of your time in a AIM
or IRC
>>>>>>chat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lord willing we need to get over our differences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lord willing,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>John
>>>>>
>>>>>John,
>>>>>
>>>>>What does "Lord willing" mean? Obviously, since there is supposed
to
>>>>>be unity in he one body people are instructed to put aside their
>>>>>differences so they can walk in unity.
>>>>>
>>>>>I have always wondered why any Christian would ever say "Lord
willing"
>>>>>since it indicates that the person does not know the will of God
>>>>>because he does not read his Bible.
>>>>
>>>>AGAIN, BB, you demonstrate OPENLY that you are not any sort of
sincere
>>>>Bible student, and that you only quote/remember those passages you
>>>>find advantageous.
>>>
>>>Actually, John, that is proof that I am a student of the Bible.
>>
>>LOL!!
>>
>>You are such a _____!
>> The
>>>phrase "Lord willing" does not appear in the Bible.
>>
>>And a Pharisee, too!
>>
>>
>> Why? Because God
>>>has revealed unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness
>>
>>If that were true, there would be NO reason for us to pray.
>
>There is no reason for us to pray that prayer.
AGAIN, Satan! You have NO clue, and I am not going to mince words with
you!
Jesus gave the Lord's Prayer to the apostles!
You God damned LIAR!
john w
snip
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.baptist,free.christians
Subject: Re: Bible Bob answer this question
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:54:25 -0700
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On 26 Jul 2006 19:50:11 -0700, "Dave" <horndw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>john w wrote:
>> x-no-archive: yes
>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 22:20:57 GMT, Bible Bob <biblebob@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
>> article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>> author
>> >On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:52:30 -0700, john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>x-no-archive: yes
>> >>On 26 Jul 2006 10:50:51 -0700, "Hoopdeedoosoever"
>> >><ontheskagit@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
>> >>article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>> >>author
>> >>>
>> >>>john w wrote:
>> >>>> ???
>> >>>> Casey Treat is a false prophet, a total phony. He is misleading
>> >>>> MILLIONS with a false doctrine (Gal 1), and Paul said we are to
expose
>> >>>> the false prophets.
>> >>>
>> >>>And Jesus said that we are to love one another, including our
>> >>>neighbors.
>> >>
>> >>You seem to delight in quoting certain passages while you
religiously
>> >>AVOID others.
>> >>
>> >>Jesus had no love for the Pharisees!
>> >>
>> >>And He viciously ATTACKED the money changers!
>> >
>> >That's not true jw;
>>
>> as I have stated repeatedly previously, I will not discuss scripture
>> with an anti-Christ cultist.
>>
>> nuff said.
>
>Just for the record, Weatherly will not discuss Scripture with someone
>who knows it better than he does.
>
>That's par for the course, because Weatherly's "knowledge" of Scripture
>is superficial, at best.
Always attacking, never ever contributing! Is that a style, Dave, or
an obsession?
And my knowledge of scripture will run circles around your demonic
corruption of scripture ANY day!
;-)
However, I prefer to IGNORE you.
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.reli
gion.christianity,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
Subject: Re: According to the Bible, God is one but also three plus some
disciples.
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:49:09 -0700
Message-ID: <lv9hc2dq7boldbpfeji20dg5k967shdf6j@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
References: <44c48943@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:27:29 +1000, Shasta@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Bree)
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>In article <44c81579$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, colp <colp@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
>
>> john w wrote:
>> >
>> > This argument "Is Jesus divine" is almost as old as the argument 'Is
>> > there a God?" and will not be resolved before the Christ (the Jesus
>> > God/man) returns in His glory to establish His earthly Kingdom once
>> > and for all.
>>
>> The prophecy spoke of the son of man. The title 'son of man' is not
>> exclusive; it also applied to Ezekiel.
>>
>> >
>> > For then, "every knee shall bow".
>> >
>> >
>> > John 1 made it quite clear that the Son was the Father in flesh, as
>> > did Paul in Colossians 2. 'For in Him (the Son/Christ Jesus) dwelt
all
>> > the fullness of the Godhead (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) in Flesh."
>>
>> The Godhead as a trinity is an artificial concept. The unity of Jesus
>> and his Father included some disciples as well.
>>
>> That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee,
>> that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou
>> hast sent me.
>> John 17:21
>
>I think Christians have become very confused
Phar Lap, you are very confused about most things.
One thing about which you continue to be confused even after 5 years
is thinking anyone in the Baptist group gives a rat's behind what you
think.
we don't.
john w
snip
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.reli
gion.christianity,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
Subject: Re: According to the Bible, God is one but also three plus some
disciples.
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:47:50 -0700
Message-ID: <169hc2puf4fqv653a8q506mb79o278pe8b@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
References: <1153692217.353168.291260@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:39:27 +1200, colp <colp@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>john w wrote:
>>
>> This argument "Is Jesus divine" is almost as old as the argument 'Is
>> there a God?" and will not be resolved before the Christ (the Jesus
>> God/man) returns in His glory to establish His earthly Kingdom once
>> and for all.
>
>The prophecy spoke of the son of man. The title 'son of man' is not
>exclusive; it also applied to Ezekiel.
>
>>
>> For then, "every knee shall bow".
>>
>>
>> John 1 made it quite clear that the Son was the Father in flesh, as
>> did Paul in Colossians 2. 'For in Him (the Son/Christ Jesus) dwelt all
>> the fullness of the Godhead (Father/Son/Holy Spirit) in Flesh."
>
>The Godhead as a trinity is an artificial concept.
That is one of your errors that you are not qualified to prove or
do***ent. One must be a SERIOUS, studied Bible student to dig out the
true nature of the Trinity in scripture, but-- fortunately-- my
pastors have all been Ph Dd, Th Dd, M Div'd, D Min'd scholars for the
past 50 plus years, so I know how to do just that.
The BASIC concept works like this. There are 3 attributes (among many)
that God possesses that ONLY God possesses.
ONLY God is Omnipotent
ONLY God is Omniscient
ONLY God is Omnipresent.
NO ONE ELSE is omnipotent. No one else is omniscient. No one else is
omnipresent. ONLY God has all three of those attributes.
So I shall make it easy on myself and grab ONE. Omniscience.
If I can show the average OPEN-minded person (that would EXCLUDE you)
passages / A passage in the Bible that describes the Father as
"omniscient" (all knowing), then we have established that The Father
is God.
Likewise, if I can show a passage in which Jesus / The Son is
described as "all knowing" / (omniscient), then I have ESTABLISHED
that the Bible claims that Jesus / the Son is God. Likewise the Holy
Spirit.
And I CAN show you / the open-minded individual that all Three
(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are God, in scripture. The definition
(in Christianity) of "The Holy Trinity" involves (but is not
necessarily limited to) there being Three ______ who are One God.
The unity of Jesus
>and his Father included some disciples as well.
Not according to scripture. Being "one in agreement" is not the same
as being "one in essence."
And when we see Jesus identifying Himself as "The Alpha and Omega" in
Revelation, we see Jesus calling Himself the Father God.
Isaiah said that the Messiah / Savior would be "The Prince of Peace"
(one of Jesus' titles), "The Mighty God" (since there is only One God,
He is here defined as that God.) "The Everlasting Father."
Isaiah 9:6
If you knew your Bible, you wouldn't be making such ridiculous
statements!
>
>That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee,
>that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou
>hast sent me.
>John 17:21
Kindly don't
#1 use inappropriate texts and overlook/sidestep appropriate ones.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word
WAS God.
And the Word became FLESH.
>
>> If you read Rev 1-3 and Rev 22, you find the descriptive "Alpha and
>> Omega"-- a title reserved for God the Father-- being used for Jesus
>> and by Jesus.
>
>Why do you think that the title is reserved for God the Father?
You missed the point. Jesus/the Christ/The Son IS "The Father."
Colossians 2:
For in Him dwelt the Fullness of the Godhead (Father/Son/Holy Spirit)
in flesh.
(all that God/Deity could be in human form, Jesus Christ was)
>
>>
>>
>> Those who reject the deity of the Christ also reject God and the
>> Trinity.
>
>Non sequitir.
Only in your mind, presuming you have one, and I have seen no proof
yet that you do.
AND, oh smart one, you mis spelled "non sequitur".
And when you attack the deity of our Lord, and when you attack God's
very nature (His TriUne identity), you are the spirit of the
anti-Christ.
>
>>
>>
>> Why argue?
>>
>
>Because the truth matters.
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy,alt.reli
gion.christianity,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
Subject: Re: According to the Bible, God is one but also three plus some
disciples.
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:33:49 -0700
Message-ID: <g29hc2hut1hbatf3p6tpfkvtsasi1a6cbm@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:10:17 +1000, Shasta@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Bree)
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>In article <uscfc29i0p283495lanvpf7rhdsvlou6uo@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, john w
><wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>> I have explaiend my "bizarre" behavior MANY times.
>>
>
>>
>> john w
>
>No you have tried and failed to EXCUSE it
I wasn't addressing you, buttface!
And you are not one to talk, since you have YET to even ATTEMPT an
explanation of why an OPEN atheist like you continues to hover in a
CHRISTIAN group like you do!
Get help, ****forbrains, while it is voluntary!
;-)
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian,alt.bible,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.religion
..christian.baptist,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: Science and God
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:30:16 -0700
Message-ID: <8r8hc2te4ddv1h3uvakmlcguua6dqkpcu2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:09:33 +1000, Shasta@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Bree)
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>In article <7j7gc2tfvo636e6sufcgb0vpgolfv2icqs@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, john w
><wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>> MANY an author of "self-help" books has referred readers and those
>> seeking help and comfort to the words of King David and King Solomon.
>>
>> Both authors suggested that it is not particularly wise to get drunk
>> when you are depressed. (alcohol being a depressant)
>>
>
>
>Gee what a bloody brilliant observation
Do you EVER make CONSTRUCTIVE comments, Phar Lap?
I suppose not!
tsk tsk
Now kindly explain to us all how "primitives" in the 1st C and 1,000
years prior knew that alcohol was a depressant.
john w
>
>I wonder how they worked that out
>
>dear oh dear oh dear
>
>Its a bit like someone pointing out that if you drop a brick on someones
>head it doesn't hurt the brick
>
>In your case however it might do the brick more damage than it does you.
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian,alt.bible,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.religion
..christian.baptist,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: Science and God
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:28:21 -0700
Message-ID: <gp8hc2tuug68n27uiha022tdfbn7ghgjmd@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 19:16:42 -0700, john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>x-no-archive: yes
>On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:36:39 -0600, Libertarius
><Libertarius@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
>article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
>author
>>You guys sure make a lot of crazy effort to spin and twist
>>the ancient fables of the Bible to read some sense out of them. -- L.
>>
>
>Some folks sure do make a huge effort so spin and twist the Bible so
>that it seems to not make sense anymore!
Pardon my typo!
S/b
Some folks sure do make a huge effort to spin and twist the Bible so
that it seems to not make sense anymore!
jw
>
>Actually, some very wise people over the centuries have commented on
>the AMAZING wisdom of such books as Psalms and Proverbs.
>
>MANY an author of "self-help" books has referred readers and those
>seeking help and comfort to the words of King David and King Solomon.
>
>Both authors suggested that it is not particularly wise to get drunk
>when you are depressed. (alcohol being a depressant)
>
>otoh
>
>Psalms begins with this counsel:
>
> PS 1:1 Blessed is the man
> who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
> or stand in the way of sinners
> or sit in the seat of mockers.
>
>
>Now, let's substitute one word for another. To be SPECIFIC by example.
>
>Blessed is the man who does not keep the company of murderers and bank
>robbers.
>
>I'd say "murderers and bank robbers" are wicked men.
>And in America, the law is pretty clear that even if you are only
>driving the car the bank robbers use to get away from the bank, you
>are as guilty as the guys who actually robbed the bank.
>
>If you don't want to get into serious trouble, avoid the company of
>bank robbers and murders.
>
>King David saw the guilt by association.
>
>
>David went on to make those who followed his guidance a promise. (a
>reward, if you will) David knew he was writing under the inspiration
>of God's Spirit, so this came as a promise from Yhwh.
>
> PS 1:6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
> but the way of the wicked will perish.
>
>If you do what is right, God will watch over you.
>
>If you do what is wrong... "You're on your own, pal!"
>
>
>King Solomon starts with a promise for those who read his words and
>heed them:
>
>
>PR 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
>
> PR 1:2 for attaining wisdom and discipline;
> for understanding words of insight;
>
> PR 1:3 for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life,
> doing what is right and just and fair;
>
> PR 1:4 for giving prudence to the simple,
> knowledge and discretion to the young--
>
> PR 1:5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
> and let the discerning get guidance--
>
> PR 1:6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
> the sayings and riddles of the wise.
>
>1. if you want to be wise and disciplined;
>If you want understanding and insight...
>
>A pretty good start!
>
>
>#2 Solomon said:
>
> PR 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
> but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
>
>VERY good advice (even if you don't believe) God doesn't tell us to do
>evil. God tells us to do good!
>
>And the FOOLISH (like Lobotomy) despise wisdom and discipline.
>
>
>But more practical even is Sol's 2nd advice:
>
> PR 1:8 Listen, my son, to your father's instruction
> and do not forsake your mother's teaching.
>
>(why? Because your parents [ usually ] love you and only want the best
>for you)
>
>And the REWARD for heeding your parents?
>
> PR 1:9 They will be a garland to grace your head
> and a chain to adorn your neck.
>
>
>It's the truly foolish who "see NO truths in the Bible."
>
>The rest of us just don't have to try so hard!
>
>Like, some truly foolish say "there's absolutely NO science in the
>Bible!"
>
>When I point out SEVERAL texts that indicate the ancients of Jesus'
>day (and before) knew about science (digestion, reproduction, and
>weather forecasting), the subject suddenly ****FTS from "the Bible
>contains NO science" to
>
>"ah! but where did they GET it?"
>
>Different subject!
>
>And the atheist hopes you will be fooled and not notice the "sleight
>of hand".
>
>Don't be fooled.
>
>There IS science in the Bible.
>
>And when they point to the "belief that the Earth was square" from
>such texts as "the 4 corners of the earth"...
>
>tsk tsk
>
>That phrase-- poetry -- is still in use today!
>
>When our local Weather re****ter, Steve Pool, refers to "The 4 Corners
>of the Globe", nobody thinks he's talking about science. He's using an
>EXPRESSION.
>
>How come the atheists INSIST that the same poetic expression simply
>MUST be a statement of "science" just because it's in the Bible?
>
>That's called "bigotry."
>
>I'm surprised that you're still in here, infecting the group, Lobo!
>But I'm still here, kicking your hinny!
>
>;-)
>
>john w
>
>>Read The Bible wrote:
>>
>>> > James said on 7/22, 1:38 pm: How do you define the
>>> > "Creation timeline"? Do you mean how old the earth
>>> > and universe is?
>>>
>>> The universe could be much older than the earth,
>>> perhaps 10 billion years older. Genesis 1:1's "heaven"
>>> and earth could refer only to the original creation
>>> of the "sky" (i.e. the atmosphere) and the non-gaseous
>>> part of the earth some 5 billion years ago, while
>>> Genesis 1:3-2:4 could refer to seven literal days in
>>> which God miraculously renewed the earth after some
>>> sort of cataclysm, perhaps as long ago as "man" (i.e.
>>> beginning with Cro Magnon man) has existed, so that
>>> Genesis 1:26-28 could refer to a miraculous creation
>>> of homo sapiens sapiens perhaps 40,000 years ago.
>>> Then Genesis 2:7-8 could begin its account from about
>>> 6,000 years ago, when the individual man Adam was
>>> miraculously created and placed in the Garden of Eden;
>>> this timeframe closely matches when scientists say
>>> men began to practice agriculture (cf. "till the
>>> ground" in Genesis 2:5).
>>>
>>> But then someone might ask, why is there no
>>> geological record of a "cataclysm" 40,000 years ago?
>>> Why are there fossils older than that, like of the
>>> dinosaurs? The cataclysm could have kept intact
>>> everything buried underground, and God could have
>>> removed any surface-effects of the cataclysm when he
>>> miraculously renewed the earth in 7 days.
>>>
>>> But then someone might ask, are you going to tell me
>>> that the sun, moon, and stars are only 40,000 years
>>> old? (Genesis 1:16) And how could God have created
>>> "light" on the earth before they existed?
>>> (Genesis 1:3-5). The answer would be that God doesn't
>>> need the sun and moon to light something up
>>> (cf. Revelation 21:23), and the cataclysm could have
>>> been that the earth was drawn gravitationally out of
>>> its orbit in another star-system by a large massive
>>> body of some kind passing nearby, so that the earth
>>> could have been wandering about in the darkness of
>>> interstellar space when God decided to restore it as
>>> one of the crown jewels of the galaxy. He could have
>>> miraculously formed a new star and a moon for it from
>>> already-aged gas and rock, and set other planets in
>>> place about the new sun. He then could have
>>> miraculously created the 6,000 or so stars which are
>>> visible to the ****d eye and placed them in exact
>>> positions so that from earth they would appear to
>>> form certain shapes (i.e. the constellations). 6,000
>>> stars is nothing compared to the 100s of billions of
>>> stars that are just in our Milky Way galaxy alone,
>>> not to mention all the stars in the other 100s of
>>> billions of galaxies in the universe.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> > Opie said on 7/25, 8:59 am: Spirit does NOT imply
>>> > god at all.
>>>
>>> Sure it does, for "God is a Spirit: and they that
>>> wor****p him must wor****p him in spirit and in truth"
>>> (John 4:24).
>>>
>>> In your view, if spirit doesn't imply God "at all",
>>> then what does it imply?
>>>
>>> > Opie said on 7/25, 8:59 am: It's just a word that's
>>> > found a home in fanatic minds to imply what they
>>> > want it to imply. Or, to put it another way, it
>>> > gives one a warm and fuzzy feeling that they're
>>> > really somebody because god gave them this spirit.
>>>
>>> Why is any idea of "spirit" needed to get the warm,
>>> fuzzy feeling? Wouldn't it be possible to get it solely
>>> from thinking they're really somebody because God gave
>>> them this material body?
>>>
>>> And do you admit there could be "spirit", although not
>>> of any "god"? If so, how would you describe your view
>>> of "spirit"? And if you don't think any sort of "spirit"
>>> can possibly exist, what do you base this on?
>>>
>>> > Opie said on 7/25, 8:59 am: Explain, if you would,
>>> > how spirit differs from consciousness which is
>>> > clearly a function of amino acid sequences.
>>>
>>> Please explain how consciousness is clearly a function
>>> of amino acid sequences. Can you even define
>>> consciousness from a strictly materialist viewpoint,
>>> and then define each part of that definition from a
>>> strictly materialist viewpoint, and then define each
>>> part of those definitions from a strictly materialist
>>> viewpoint, and so on?
>>>
>>> -From a Christian viewpoint, consciousness can refer
>>> simply to the waking state of the physical brain,
>>> which has no correlation to the state of the spirit,
>>> which can exist in a state of awareness completely
>>> apart from the body (e.g. Revelation 6:9-11,
>>> 2 Corinthians 12:2-4).
>>>
>>> ---
>>> > Angelina said on 7/25, 9:10 am: If Bible was truly
>>> > inspired by God, like it claims, it wouldn't have
>>> > so many errors and contradictions right?
>>>
>>> The Bible teaches no errors or contradictions.
>>>
>>> > Angelina said on 7/25, 9:10 am: Bible literally has
>>> > hundreds of errors and contradictions between
>>> > different parts.
>>>
>>> Apparent contradictions can be resolved in a reasonable
>>> fa****on.
>>>
>>> But how do we resolve the contradictions of science?
>>> For example, is light a wave or a particle? How can
>>> it act as both at the same time?
>>>
>>> > Angelina said on 7/25, 9:10 am: So if that part
>>> > (being inspired by God) of the Bible is not true,
>>> > why should I believe anything else it says is valid?
>>>
>>> All of the Bible is inspired by God, and all that it
>>> teaches is profitable (2 Timothy 3:16). If someone
>>> doesn't believe the Bible after reading it themselves
>>> with an open mind (Romans 10:17), nothing else will
>>> be able to convince them of its truth (Luke 16:31).
>>> Only God can give a person faith (Acts 13:48,
>>> Ephesians 2:8); nobody decides on their own to
>>> suddenly have it (John 1:13).
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.adventist,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.relig
ion.christian.biblestudy,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
Subject: Re: TO RETURN TO..The Keeping of His Commandments--Praise God!
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:26:45 -0700
Message-ID: <cn8hc2d1hdr02hlh3gscml55k8lap9h1ar@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:16:35 GMT, "Whazit Tooyah" <nospam@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>
>"Andrew" <andrew.321remov@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:lCSxg.437$0e5.233@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will
>> not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The
>> Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day
>> which we [Roman Catholics] never sanctify"
>>
>> James
Cardinal
>> Gibbons
>> Faith of Our
>> Fathers, p.111
>
>Correct, but very few still view Sunday as being sacred. It is just a
day
>of the week just like the other six. The only difference is that most
>Christians meet together in their individual churches on Sunday. Nobody
>keeps it, very few even suggest keeping Sunday in any legalized form.
>The question is not whether Sunday is sacred, the question is, is any
day
>sacred in the Christian era. As I studied the subject, I came to the
>conclusion that Romans 14:5 meant just exactly what it says. "One person
>regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each
person
>must be fully convinced in his own mind." Likewise I believe Romans
14:10
>means what it says. "But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you
again,
>why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand
before
>the judgment seat of God." I believe that if Paul meant feast day or
>holiday in verse five he would have used the word that means feast day
or
>holiday, not the one he used which means 'day of the week.'
>
>>
>>
>> But the holy, moral and pure commandments that our Creator gave to
>> mankind at Sinai in the Decalogue, were NEVER CHANGED. God is
>> now calling us TO RETURN TO..the keeping of His commandments
>> through the power and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
>>
>>
>> "The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has
>> no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day
>> Adventist is the only consistent Protestant."
>>
>> The Catholic
Universe
>> Bulletin
>> August 14, 1942,
page
>> 4
>
>Spoken by one who does not know his Bible very well and/or by one who is
a
>firm believer in covenant theology, i.e. the promises and covenants
given to
>Israel now belong to the church.
Thanks, WT, for an enlightening post!
You have answered SEVERAL questions for me!
"Well done, good and faithful servant!"
The ONLY reason *I* can find in scripture for wor****pping on Sunday is
that is the day the apostles/disciples evidently chose to commemorate
the Sunday morning Resurrection.
Since there was NO COMMANDMENT from Jesus to honor a particular day,
the apostles felt totally free to pick one for themselves.
And they chose Sunday.
It is interesting AND informative that, after the apostles/disciples
chose to honor Christ by Sunday wor****p, God Himself (in the form of
Jesus and then the Holy Spirit) endorsed their choice of Sunday!
Can you, WT, answer me, why I say that God (Jesus and the Holy Spirit)
approved and endorsed Sunday wor****p?
(it IS there, if you know what you're looking for, and if you actually
THINK about and ABSORB what you are reading. You DO need to lay aside
TRADITIONS that men may have taught you, but when we open the Word of
God, we are to lay aside tradition ANYWAY, and simply ask God's Spirit
to teach us!)
God bless!
john w
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups:
alt.religion.christian.adventist,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.relig
ion.christian.biblestudy,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
Subject: Re: TO RETURN TO..The Keeping of His Commandments--Praise God!
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:20:45 -0700
Message-ID: <668hc2d87ln6o6p7mjorgj4ajrf8rdg0sf@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
References: <QMadnT20EqR8MF_ZnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 23:09:05 GMT, "Andrew" <andrew.321remov@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>
>"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will
> not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The
> Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day
> which we [Roman Catholics] never sanctify"
>
> James Cardinal
Gibbons
> Faith of Our
Fathers, p.111
>
>
Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible state that the Roman Catholic
Church is the Final Authority / Or ANY authority for that matter, in
matters of Christianity.
So it matters not a tiny bit what your James Cardinal Gibbons thinks
about ANYTHING.
john w
>But the holy, moral and pure commandments that our Creator gave to
>mankind at Sinai in the Decalogue, were NEVER CHANGED. God is
>now calling us TO RETURN TO..the keeping of His commandments
>through the power and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
>
>
> "The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has
> no warrant for observing Sunday.
Lies of Rome!
The gospels themselves record 2 separate Christian Sunday wor****p
services, one the very night of the Sunday Jesus rose. The 2nd, the
following Sunday.
Several more Sunday Christian services are recorded in Acts and in the
Epistles.
Kindly confine this spam to the Roman Catholic group.
This topic has been discussed TO DEATH in the Baptist group.
And you are wasting my bandwidth!
john w
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups: alt.bible,alt.religion.christian.baptist,free.christians
Subject: Re: Whats the Purpose of my Life?
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:13:48 -0700
Message-ID: <7s7hc29or2m9elum9dj83tiihr0nccujhp@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 23:26:41 -0700, "Bible John"
<john.doggett@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>I said my religious views..
Then you were being stupid!
This is how potential employers weed out people who could be TROUBLE.
(you could be / and ARE trouble)
The employer was asking you what he/ she can expect from you over the
next 5 years or so if they hire you. What you do on YOUR time is none
of their business, presuming you aren't a drug dealer or making ****.
sheesh!
>
>"Dave" <horndw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>news:1153978153.297096.98730@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Bible John wrote:
>>> Today I was asked this question in a job interview. While I
understand
>>> the
>>> law...
>>
>> Among the many things that Wolf does *not* understand is the law.
>>
>>> ...and understand that employers do not want to hear about my
religious
>>> views. But I will respond to the question here.
>>>
>>> This is the Purpose of CERM and the purpose of my life.
>>
>> [Snip verses]
>>
>>> Te gospel of Jesus Christ is the salvation that mankind needs to hear
and
>>> accept or be doomed to Hell. People need a savior and people need the
>>> gospel
>>> being boldly taught to them.
>>>
>>> The mission of CERM is to boldly preach and teach the word and
provide
>>> resources for Christians.
>>
>> Okay, I have to admit to some curiousity. If this is the "purpose"
>> that Wolf believes he should fulfill, and if he was asked by a
>> potential employer and told that employer something else, that's
lying,
>> isn't it...?
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups: alt.bible,alt.religion.christian.baptist,free.christians
Subject: Re: Whats the Purpose of my Life?
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:11:56 -0700
Message-ID: <qi7hc29linicmcsgq64oouc7c4l7i32tja@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On 26 Jul 2006 22:29:13 -0700, "Dave" <horndw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>Bible John wrote:
>> Today I was asked this question in a job interview. While I understand
the
>> law...
>
>Among the many things that Wolf does *not* understand is the law.
>
>> ...and understand that employers do not want to hear about my
religious
>> views. But I will respond to the question here.
>>
>> This is the Purpose of CERM and the purpose of my life.
>
>[Snip verses]
>
>> Te gospel of Jesus Christ is the salvation that mankind needs to hear
and
>> accept or be doomed to Hell. People need a savior and people need the
gospel
>> being boldly taught to them.
>>
>> The mission of CERM is to boldly preach and teach the word and provide
>> resources for Christians.
>
>Okay, I have to admit to some curiousity. If this is the "purpose"
>that Wolf believes he should fulfill, and if he was asked by a
>potential employer and told that employer something else, that's lying,
>isn't it...?
Truth is OFTEN "situational".
If you are having a HORRIBLE day (the wife left you, the engine blew
up, the house burned down, and your 16 year old just got busted for
selling 5 pounds of cocaine to an undercover narc),
then you go on a job interview, and the prospective employer asks,
"How are YOU today?"
Do you TRULY think he/she wants to hear you gripe for 10 minutes about
your HORRIBLE life?
The prospective employer has NOT asked you a SINCERE question about
how your day has been. The prospective employer has merely GREETED
you.
BJ's prospective employer has asked-- in his / her own way -- "what
can WE expect from you for the next 5 years should we hire you?"
That does NOT mean " ON YOUR TIME." That DOES mean, "during the 8 - 12
hours per day we pay you for!"
BJ is saying that he gave a "situation-appropriate" answer.
And his reply is FAR more MATURE and thoughtful than your snipe!
Grow up!
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist
Subject: Re: Google Groups deleted this group...?
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 00:42:38 -0700
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On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 19:36:49 -0400, NOspam@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no ****tion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
>On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:30:23 -0700, john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>I'll just make up quotes, like Elaine and Phar Lap and Dave and
>>Lobotomy and crawls do!
>
>
>I don't 'make up' quotes, imbecile.
SURE ya do! ;-)
I have proof!
They're archived!
;-)
Like, "John said he got a Dishonorable Discharge!"
smirk.
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From: john w <wjohn1134@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.baptist
Subject: Re: Google Groups deleted this group...?
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 00:41:27 -0700
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