Merlin wrote:
> Risto Karttunen wrote:
> >
> > I don't deny that something positive could be seen in the original sin
> > itself.
>
> why do you see it as sin, when it had nothing to do with you.
>
"Sin" is the word for this phenomenon we have discussed and which has
much to do with me.
>
> > which I consider quite harmful in this context.
>
> then why all the negative arguments? which place you on side or the
> other?
>
What negative arguments? I am not necessarily on any "side".
>
> > I would like to see the
> > original sin as a capability which isn't inherently _bad_.
>
> it isn't true.
>
What isn't true: sin is a capability or it isn't inherently bad?
>
> there is no patient zero for hiv.
> there is no patient zero for sin.
> there is no time when we could not have become who we are.
> there is nothing wrong with wishful thinking.
>
Yes, there is nothing wrong with wishful thinking, so...?
>
> (...)
> > secretly be _proud_ of what He has created in man.
>
> it isn't a secret. it is something everyone can know. personally.
>
That was about God. It is not written in the Bible that He was proud,
but I think He was, as any loving parent would have been.
>
> > Every parent whose
> > child does something unexpected, dangerous and extravagant is proud,
> > but perhaps also worried, and the child may be reprimanded and
> > punished, of course.
>
> again, you go negative.
>
How so?
>
> have you been or seen too much punishment in your life?
>
Not too much, no.
>
> > I'd say evil is something which is immoral.
>
> then evil is something you would not do.
>
I wouldn't know. Perhaps St. Paul was right about this and Aristotle
was wrong, for example.
>
> while evil you do not do may be good for some else?
>
Give me an example, please.
>
> we see chrsitians all the time denying others prescription rights.
>
_Prescription_ rights? Who are "we" and who are those Christians? I am
a Finn; you seem to be talking about something which is taking place
in America.
>
> so the christian sees immorality where there is none.
> the christian sees evil where there is none.
>
I guess some Christians do.
>
> (...) and we have christians
> today telling us how evil people are that are not evil, just not
> interested in ba****ng gays like many christians are./
>
Do some American Christians really say that it is evil not to be
interested in ba****ng gays? I am sorry if that really is the case; I
am a Christian and I certainly do not say that. (I don't know English
very well; shouldn't the first letters in "American" and "Christian"
be capitals?).
>
> > For example, it is evil to
> > treat other people as means rather than ends, as Kant said.
>
> that is all humans do.
>
We are sinners, yes.
>
> jesus supposed death is being taken advantage by every christian that
> says jesus died for memememememe.
>
That "advantage" is not what Kant meant.
>
> > > is saying god in hindi evil to you?
>
> > I don't understand your question.
>
> many english speaking christians refuse to allow the name of god in
> any language other than english.
>
I am surprised to hear that. The Bible was not written in English.
>
> it was a generic question about culture supresitition and racism in
> european christianity, where a jewish carpenter is always played by a
> southern italian.
>
Always? In movies etc? And exactly where would the racism be, even if
that was true?
>
> > I am a Finn.
>
> then do you allow god to be addressed in other language.
>
What a strange question indeed. Of course I don't insist that all
people in the world should use the word "Jumala" (the Finnish word for
God).
>
> > Trivially I call a thing evil only if I consider it to be evil (to me
> > or to somebody else).
>
> that isn't good enough.
>
What do you mean?
>
> where does your consciousness lie?
> where do you put your faith in your soul?
> where do you see your inner residing?
> this isn't philosophical this is a real question,
> it is where we place our love our soul or connection with god.
>
Are you asking whether I consider my consciousness etc. to be
spatially located or not?
>
> > At least I admit that there is much we don't know yet.
>
> as you label the unknown to you as evil?
>
I have said nothing like that. Of course I don't think that unknown
logical, physical, historical etc. facts are _evil_.
>
> > Perhaps our
> > consciousness is one of the things we will never understand, really.
>
> and that is why so many turn to religion.
>
Very few people turn to religion on the basis of deliberate ponderings
upon consciousness, I think. If a person really _turns_ to religion,
the reasons seem to be in some deep psychological crisis, or there has
been no single reason, in case that turn has taken place little by
little.
>
> > > ego is too im****tant, and will always be there.
>
> > In that case we will never find the road back to Eden.
>
> it isn't the second comming of jesus.
> it is us find jesus for the first time and becomming.
>
Now you are preaching about something you don't really _know_, I dare
say.
>
> (...)
> do we even have the power of thought to acomplish anything?
>
We can and do accomplish quite a lot, of course.
>
> > > and how is not an animal fighting over food not using mememememem
(...)
>
> > Huh?
>
> watch animals eat on the discovery channel./
> watch lions catch their food.
> watch birds pick out a fish.
>
Your point being...?
>
> there is a sense of the soul in the choices animals make.
> from nesting to foraging. it is survival beyond instinct.
>
On what basis do you say that, survival _beyond_ instinct?
>
> > > > We humans are curious.
>
> > > and that some call sin.
>
> > Exactly.
>
> that is what merlin calls being negative rather than neutral about
> life.
>
"Sin" is usually said in the negative sense, of course.
>
> > We teach the fear of the difference between the Good and the Evil?
>
> to unsuspecting children. that grow up to think you can get pregnant
> from toilet seats.
>
So that was what you meant by teaching _the fear of the difference_
between the Good and the Evil, I see.
>
> you tell us.......... what age do christians in your country out gay
> children in their midst?
>
Most Christians here don't do that at all.
>
> outing children as gay happens all the time by christians in america.
>
Are all Christians really doing that there, all the time?
>
> > > in love with the living gay jesus,
>
> > Gay?
>
> yes do you wor****p a finnish a jesus?
> or do you speak greek?
>
Greek? I don't understand.
--
risto
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