Re: Atheists have blind faith in their ability

In alt.religion.christian Andrew <thecroft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On 2008-06-14 17:42:26 +0100, EskWIRED@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 said:

> > In alt.religion.christian Andrew <thecroft@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> THe basic Paradox of this is that if he KNOWS the future =- he is
> >>> powerless to change it - which means he is not almighty.
> > 
> >> Depends what you mean by "almighty". It certainly doesn't mean that
God
> >> can do things which are logically incoherent. That's not a limitation
> >> of power, though.
> > 
> > Why assume he is powerless to change it?  If you knew how a pinball
would
> > react to each bumper, and were quick enough and skilled enough to
realize
> > a moment-by-moment presage of its next move in your head, you could
shake
> > the machine perfectly to make the ball do what you prefer.  Good
players
> > can do a bit of this.

> None of this involves knowledge however. It involves precise 
> prediction. There is a subtle but im****tant difference.

> If I know 'X' to be true, then it is true. If there is any possibility 
> that X is untrue, then I do not know it; I may believe it, or have very 
> good grounds for accepting it; but I do not know it.

> To do as you suggest involves God in a logical paradox:

> 1) God knew that Jesus would die (so "Jesus dies" must be true)
> 2) God could have prevented this from happening (so "Jesus dies" would 
> be untrue)

You ignore the passage of time. You ignore intervening events.

One could know with total certainty that "if I do nothing, x will happen".
 
But then you apply the brakes, and the little kid in the street, 
oblivious, does not get run over.

Your dichotomy is false.

> Thus the statement "Jesus dies" would be simultaneously true and untrue.

Oly if all of time is frozen, with events all inevitable. This may be 
correct, but to think so makes God powerless, and robs people of thier 
free will.  IOW, it is heresy.


> > God could play a perfect game. I assume that the God imagined by the
> > Christians and the Moslems can do this.
> > 
> > 
> > He knows the future, and has the ability to make changes as he goes
along.

> No. That's a misunderstanding of how Christians perceive God. In 
> Christian doctrine God is held to be eternal - that is, outside of 
> time. For God there is no 'future' and no 'past'. For God the death of 
> Jesus was a truth from the beginning of Creation.

So God is powerless?  He can do nothing about nothing?  Bull****. If not 
even God himself can change events, then what becomes of free will?


But let us go with your "the die has been cast, and there ain't nothing 
God can ever do to change things" idea.  For the sakeof arguement, we will

assume that it is correct.

So who cast the die?  Who planned it out so that Jesus would die in 
exactly that manner?



> > He saw all along what would happen to jesus.  He likely could do
whatever
> > He wanted to change the story, on a moment-by-moment basis.  He wanted
> > things to go down precisely as they did, becuase he so loved the
world. At
> > any time he could have changed anything that he wanted changed, so
that
> > Jesus would die on the cross - or not.
> > 
> > Hey - he had to harden pharoah's heart several times. As unpredictable
> > humans exercise their free will, God sees the future change
> > simultaneously.  So he can see the future, is powerful enough to
change
> > it, and there is no contradiction between the two.

> Again I think you're missing the contradiction in suggesting that 
> someone can KNOW what the future will be and make it other than that.

Perhaps they can know the future, as it currently stands, down to the 
minute details of every subatomic particle.  But then they change current 
conditions, and they then know the changed future, in detail. And being 
God, omnipotent and omnicient, it can do this a zillion times a second. 

Or maybe hejust sits there with his thumb up his ass, powerless to do a 
goddamned thing in this world?  

> > 
> > So he fully intended and desired that his only begotten son would die
a
> > cruel and bloody death.  He intended this because he loves us so much.
Or
> > so say Xtians...
> > 



-- 
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so 
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
	-- Bertrand Russel