Willy wrote:
> "bob young" <alaspectrum@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:475F6F53.E1D47B59@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > Willy wrote:
> >
> >> "bob young" <alaspectrum@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >> news:475E5D3D.C875324B@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Willy wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "steveo" <gnsemail@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >> >> news:bDK6j.2762$db7.557@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Willy" <willyk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:3s%5j.76055$YL5.48574@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Pastor Frank" <PF@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >> >> >> news:475752eb$0$26041$88260bb3@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >>> "Willy" <willyk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> >> >> >>> news:85F5j.3007$Vq.2099@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >>>> "**Rowland Croucher**"
> >> >> >>>> <rccroucher@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >> >> >>>> wrote in message
> >> >> >>>> news:474f97d2$0$3101$afc38c87@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >>>>> Willy wrote:
> >> >> >>>>>> "**Rowland Croucher**"
> >> >> >>>>>> <rccroucher@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >> >> >>>>>> wrote in message
> >> >> >>>>>> news:474ca967$0$23258$afc38c87@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >>>>>>> A friend wrote:
> >> >> >>>>> <>
> >> >> >>>>>> I'm not sure of your interpretation of universalsim,
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> 'All humans will be saved; there is no eternal torture for
God's
> >> >> >>>>> precious creatures in a cosmic rubbish dump called hell'.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> but I tend to agree with you on this point.
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> Many would argue that universal atonement violates a person
who
> >> >> >>>>>> chooses not to believe in God's will, but in reality it
does
> >> >> >>>>>> not.
> >> >> >>>>>> Just because you don't believe is an invalid argument as
> >> >> >>>>>> believing
> >> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >> >>>>>> not part of the essential formula for a universal system.
And
> >> >> >>>>>> perhaps only those that willfully and wantonly refuse God
and
> >> >> >>>>>> shake
> >> >> >>>>>> their fist in his face defiantly and intentionally will be
> >> >> >>>>>> denied
> >> >> >>>>>> atonement for their sins.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> My God is big and gracious enough to cope with this sort of
> >> >> >>>>> senseless,
> >> >> >>>>> stupid and ignorant defiance...
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>> Actually you and I agree, although I do believe it is
possible to
> >> >> >>>> willfully reject God. However, I, like yourself, do not
believe
> >> >> >>>> in
> >> >> >>>> Hell. Or rather I should say, Hell is simply seperation from
God.
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>> Actually it is not possible. For the god that is "willfully
> >> >> >>> rejectable" is not God. Our Christian "God is love" (1 John
> >> >> >>> 4:8,16)
> >> >> >>> become fully manifested in Jesus Christ giving His life for us
> >> >> >>> sinners
> >> >> >>> on the cross of Calvary. We therefore know our God and have
seen
> >> >> >>> Him.
> >> >> >>> (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
> >> >> >>> Atheists don't know our God and therefore cannot see Him,
> >> >> >>> (Jesus
> >> >> >>> in
> >> >> >>> John 3:3)
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> --
> >> >> >>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> pastor Frank:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I make those comments about it being "possible" to reject God
based
> >> >> >> solely on the scriptural suggestion that the ONLY sin that
cannot
> >> >> >> be
> >> >> >> forgiven is blasphemy, and to me, blasphemy would be the act of
> >> >> >> willfully
> >> >> >> and intentionally rejecting God and spitting in His face.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> However, I do make those comments with a tremendous degree of
> >> >> >> reservation, for I, like yourself, tend to believe that all
will be
> >> >> >> saved.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Willy
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I agree with your interpretation, Willy. Question: with free
will
> >> >> > being
> >> >> > part of humanity's design, if a human chose to actively not
wor****p
> >> >> > God
> >> >> > and Jesus even after believing that they do exist, how would
taking
> >> >> > them
> >> >> > with the believers be in alignment with the purposeful design of
God
> >> >> > for
> >> >> > humanity (i.e. giving us free will)? This is not meant to
> >> >> > necessarily
> >> >> > be
> >> >> > a leading question.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > steveo
> >> >>
> >> >> That's a tough question, but if we are to believe the Biblical
> >> >> writer's
> >> >> interpretaiton of the afterlife, particularly in regard to the
> >> >> condition
> >> >> known as "heaven"... then we are also told there will be
"rewards" in
> >> >> Heaven, and / or our "position" will somehow be determined by our
good
> >> >> works
> >> >> while on this Earth.
> >> >>
> >> >> It would make sense (based on the scripture) that those who did
little
> >> >> or
> >> >> nothing will perhaps have a lesser position than those who worked
> >> >> diligently, such as the apostles.
> >> >>
> >> >> This whole heaven concept is a bit far fetched, and I'm sure it's
WAY
> >> >> beyond
> >> >> what anyone could have imagined at the time scripture was
rendered, so
> >> >> we
> >> >> can only imagine......
> >> >
> >> > ....or maybe even 'question' !
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Willy
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yes, question is a fair statement.
> >>
> >> I was recently in a 3 day seminar which was headed by noted
theologian
> >> Marcus Borg. I don't know if you're familiar with Mr. Borg, but his
> >> teaching has helped mold (and revolutionize) my way of thinking.
> >>
> >> One of the comments he made during a question and answer session
which
> >> actually stuck with me more than anything in his sessions was when
asked,
> >> "Do you feel the hope of heaven is the reason we should happily
endure
> >> the
> >> troubles and difficulties of this life"... to which he responded
(and
> >> I"m
> >> quoting from memory)..
> >>
> >> After a long pause, he said "No. I don't. When you look at the
> >> teachings
> >> of the Jewish tradition, no where was there mention of heaven nor
hell.
> >> The
> >> Biblical characters of the Old Testament did everything they did,
because
> >> they felt it was the RIGHT THING TO DO, and NOT for the promise of
> >> eternal
> >> bliss"... and he went on to suggest that the NT concept of heaven
and
> >> hell
> >> were most likely based on other teachings and traditions that were
> >> present
> >> in society at that time.
> >>
> >> Man I've got to tell you.. that blew me away......
> >
> > ....hope you can find your way back Willy, you will be missed.
> >
> > Just about every religion has a heaven and a hell with devils thrown
in
> > for
> > good measure.
> > I know most of the Asian ones out here do.
> >
> > Man loves to strike fear into his fellow men. In days gone by, either
by
> > being
> > the strongest fighter, or failing that, with frightening words.
> >
> > Things never change
> >
> > bob
> > humanist Brit.
> > Hong Kong
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Willy
> >
>
> You're right Bob. And when you look at Egypt long ago, we see where the
> Pharoah's often built 'GODS to be wor****pped, and created systems and
> methods for how they were to be wor****pped. Man seems to have an
inherent
> NEED for an ultimate authority. I was disucssing this with an agnostic
> friend of mine a few days ago... asking him, where do you think that
"NEED"
> that we all seem to possess originates.
>
> His thoughts where that perhaps as children we look at our parental
> characters as the ultimate "god" of our lives, and then as we progress
into
> a mature thinking process, that somehow translates into a need for a
"God".
>
> Your thoughts?
Could also be connected to our long distant past, to times before we had a
workable language, times that continued without change over millions of
years;
unlike today when things change so fast it is hard to keep pace.
I refer to early humans living, as the experts tell us, akin to the other
mammals, the wolves for example. They had their alpha wolf and still do
and I
reckon over millions of years we lived the same way, reliant for safety
and for
food on the leader of the pack [an alpha human] who, whether we liked him
or
not, we needed to bow down to, for the sake of our sons !
When some enterprising early human produced his first carved wooden god it
was
an attractive alternative to what we had been used to, and we fell for it,
well
at least - some of us did. [no wonder they called it a 'He']
Back in those days what we also feared were 'the evil spirits' we thought
lurked in the forest of a night, so that fella with the carved wooden god
told
his followers it would chase 'em away.
Nothing changes very much does it?
Cheers
Bob
>
>
> Willy
|
