"bob young" <alaspectrum@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:475E5D3D.C875324B@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Willy wrote:
>
>> "steveo" <gnsemail@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> news:bDK6j.2762$db7.557@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>> > "Willy" <willyk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> > news:3s%5j.76055$YL5.48574@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>
>> >> "Pastor Frank" <PF@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >> news:475752eb$0$26041$88260bb3@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>> "Willy" <willyk@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>> >>> news:85F5j.3007$Vq.2099@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>>> "**Rowland Croucher**"
<rccroucher@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >>>> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:474f97d2$0$3101$afc38c87@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>>>> Willy wrote:
>> >>>>>> "**Rowland Croucher**"
>> >>>>>> <rccroucher@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> >>>>>> wrote in message
>> >>>>>> news:474ca967$0$23258$afc38c87@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>>>>>> A friend wrote:
>> >>>>> <>
>> >>>>>> I'm not sure of your interpretation of universalsim,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 'All humans will be saved; there is no eternal torture for God's
>> >>>>> precious creatures in a cosmic rubbish dump called hell'.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> but I tend to agree with you on this point.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Many would argue that universal atonement violates a person who
>> >>>>>> chooses not to believe in God's will, but in reality it does
not.
>> >>>>>> Just because you don't believe is an invalid argument as
believing
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>> not part of the essential formula for a universal system. And
>> >>>>>> perhaps only those that willfully and wantonly refuse God and
>> >>>>>> shake
>> >>>>>> their fist in his face defiantly and intentionally will be
denied
>> >>>>>> atonement for their sins.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> My God is big and gracious enough to cope with this sort of
>> >>>>> senseless,
>> >>>>> stupid and ignorant defiance...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Actually you and I agree, although I do believe it is possible to
>> >>>> willfully reject God. However, I, like yourself, do not believe
in
>> >>>> Hell. Or rather I should say, Hell is simply seperation from God.
>> >>>>
>> >>> Actually it is not possible. For the god that is "willfully
>> >>> rejectable" is not God. Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)
>> >>> become fully manifested in Jesus Christ giving His life for us
>> >>> sinners
>> >>> on the cross of Calvary. We therefore know our God and have seen
Him.
>> >>> (Jesus in John 14:6-10)
>> >>> Atheists don't know our God and therefore cannot see Him, (Jesus
>> >>> in
>> >>> John 3:3)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> pastor Frank:
>> >>
>> >> I make those comments about it being "possible" to reject God based
>> >> solely on the scriptural suggestion that the ONLY sin that cannot be
>> >> forgiven is blasphemy, and to me, blasphemy would be the act of
>> >> willfully
>> >> and intentionally rejecting God and spitting in His face.
>> >>
>> >> However, I do make those comments with a tremendous degree of
>> >> reservation, for I, like yourself, tend to believe that all will be
>> >> saved.
>> >>
>> >> Willy
>> >
>> > I agree with your interpretation, Willy. Question: with free will
>> > being
>> > part of humanity's design, if a human chose to actively not wor****p
God
>> > and Jesus even after believing that they do exist, how would taking
>> > them
>> > with the believers be in alignment with the purposeful design of God
>> > for
>> > humanity (i.e. giving us free will)? This is not meant to
necessarily
>> > be
>> > a leading question.
>> >
>> > steveo
>>
>> That's a tough question, but if we are to believe the Biblical writer's
>> interpretaiton of the afterlife, particularly in regard to the
condition
>> known as "heaven"... then we are also told there will be "rewards" in
>> Heaven, and / or our "position" will somehow be determined by our good
>> works
>> while on this Earth.
>>
>> It would make sense (based on the scripture) that those who did little
or
>> nothing will perhaps have a lesser position than those who worked
>> diligently, such as the apostles.
>>
>> This whole heaven concept is a bit far fetched, and I'm sure it's WAY
>> beyond
>> what anyone could have imagined at the time scripture was rendered, so
we
>> can only imagine......
>
> ....or maybe even 'question' !
>
>>
>>
>> Willy
>
Yes, question is a fair statement.
I was recently in a 3 day seminar which was headed by noted theologian
Marcus Borg. I don't know if you're familiar with Mr. Borg, but his
teaching has helped mold (and revolutionize) my way of thinking.
One of the comments he made during a question and answer session which
actually stuck with me more than anything in his sessions was when asked,
"Do you feel the hope of heaven is the reason we should happily endure the
troubles and difficulties of this life"... to which he responded (and I"m
quoting from memory)..
After a long pause, he said "No. I don't. When you look at the teachings
of the Jewish tradition, no where was there mention of heaven nor hell.
The
Biblical characters of the Old Testament did everything they did, because
they felt it was the RIGHT THING TO DO, and NOT for the promise of eternal
bliss"... and he went on to suggest that the NT concept of heaven and
hell
were most likely based on other teachings and traditions that were present
in society at that time.
Man I've got to tell you.. that blew me away.
Willy
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