On May 16, 8:49 pm, "Chuck Stamford" <shell__stamf...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> "rogue" <rogue...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
> news:f54629a4-7cb2-42f1-88d3-9abd7d02c6b2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > Carl wrote:
> >> Evangelist John Rice's sermon below is on the topic of salvation and
the
> >> Biblical fact that salvation is by God's Grace through faith in Jesus
> >> Christ
> >> and NOT by works of man.
>
> > JERRY
> > Really?
>
> Really.
>
> What Carl is saying is true:
>
> And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a
bed:
> and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of
> good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. Matt 9:2 (KJV)
>
> But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be
of
> good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made
whole
> from that hour. Matt 9:22 (KJV)
>
> Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto
you.
> 30 And their eyes were opened Matt 9:29-30 (KJV)
>
> Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be
it
> unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that
very
> hour Matt 15:28 (KJV)
>
> Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast
him
> out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I
say
> unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto
> this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and
> nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matt 17:19-20 (KJV)
>
> Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have
faith,
> and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree,
but
> also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou
cast
> into the sea; it shall be done.
> 22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye
shall
> receive. Matt 21:21-22 (KJV)
>
> And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee
Luke
> 18:42 (KJV)
JERRY
Invalid metaphor, Chuck. The issue is, are you saved by grace or
works. I showed verses that indicate that all *judgment* (which
really determines if you are "saved" or not) is done based upon
works. You bring me verses on people who are healed by faith and
grace. They are not the same thing.
>
> Now it would be a mistake to do one of either of two things here: a)
take
> these passages and conclude from them that faith is what's the operative
> cause of Jesus doing these healings and forgiving sins, or b) concluding
> from them that faith isn't necessary for these healings and forgiveness
of
> sin to be brought about by Jesus. Perhaps some more of the literally
> hundreds of biblical passages showing the nature of faith, and it's
> relation****p to works/actions will help bring out it's true nature, and
why
> Carl is correct to say faith is as necessary for salvation as is the
grace
> of God:
JERRY
Faith is irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is how are you saved?
Does "salvation" come to you simply because you believe? You have
faith in god and no matter what your earthly works are, you go to
heaven? Not according to Jesus when he discusses separating the goats
from the lambs. That is done entirely upon one's works.
In fact, Matthew 25 gives us two parables that essentially say the
same thing. We had the parable of the unprofitable servant, the one
who hid his Masters money and returned only what had been given to him
and the one who took the five talents out and made five more to give
to his Master. (This can be interpreted as bringing souls to the Lord
or it can also be interpreted as one who took what was granted/given
and went out to be spiritually profitable in other ways. Then we have
the parable of the sheep and the goats.
25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on
the left.
25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye
blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the
foundation of the world:
25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 ****d, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was
in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we
thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or ****d, and
clothed thee?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto
you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my
brethren, ye have done it unto me.
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from
me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
angels:
25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and
ye gave me no drink:
25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: ****d, and ye clothed
me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee
an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or ****d, or sick, or in
prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not
to me.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the
righteous into life eternal.
How much more clear does Jesus have to make it? What you believe is
NOT ENOUGH. What you do to the least among you to help your fellow
humans carries more weight than all the hallelujah's you shout in your
churches, more than the money you tithe to build yet another building,
more than tracts you put into public restrooms.
Or look at the story of the Good Samaritan. Those are the emissaries
that God wants.
No, Carl is wrong, Chuck, and you are as well if you don't see that NO
ONE can trump what Jesus has to say about salvation.
>
> But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be
> granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised
> from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith
in
> his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith
> which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of
you
> all. Acts 3:14-16 (KJV)
JERRY
Doesn't address the issue of saved by faith or works.
>
> Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in
the
> faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom
of
> God. Acts 14:22 (KJV)
JERRY
By telling them this story, Jesus was also telling them how he wanted
them to behave when they were out being missionaries to Jesus. Be
good to your brothers and sisters, help them out where you can. Do
unto others.
>
> And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the
Holy
> Ghost, even as he did unto us;
> 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by
> faith. Acts 15:8-9 (KJV)
JERRY
But still judging them by their works, not their faith.
>
> Now we begin to see that faith is the means whereby men become pleasing
to
> God; whereby they "purify" their hearts before God; whereby they enter
into
> God's kingdom. To continue...
>
> Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward
God,
> and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:21 (KJV)
>
> Here is a mini-summary of the gospel of Jesus Christ! It consists not
in a
> list of works, but in repentance toward God from our dead works of
> unrighteousness, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Later, in the
> epistle of James, we find that these two necessary prongs of salvation
> invariably produce, in the person who really has these two, a life
filled
> with good works. So...
JERRY
Not interested in a list of works, Chuck. Interested in what Jesus
had to say about salvation by faith versus works. Matthew 25 lays it
out in pretty stark terms.
As Christians, you are not to be the unprofitable servant. You don't
take the faith in god and bury it in a field and wait for the Master
to return and give him back all of what he gave you and nothing more.
You are to be the profitable servant, go out into the world, be the
beacon of goodness that your faith gives you and help others. Be the
good samaritan. Help the weak among you, make them stronger, get them
through the tough times, and not just other Christians, not just
people who are pleasing to you, but even the ones that are not. (The
Good Samaritan didn't care that his patient was not another Samaritan,
he simply helped because someone needed it.)
If you don't do these things, Jesus says you will be lined up with the
goats on the Master's left and sent away when Judgment comes.
Working in a soup kitchen yet? ;-)
No, Carl is wrong, and so are you, if you think you, or Carl or even
Paul or James words trump those words of Jesus. If the religion is
Christianity, and the goal is to be more "Christ-like" then following
the words and teachings of Jesus are what is im****tant, not the words
of the great misogynist, Paul.
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