Chuck Stamford wrote:
>
> "rogue" <rogue719@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> news:f54629a4-7cb2-42f1-88d3-9abd7d02c6b2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Carl wrote:
> >> Evangelist John Rice's sermon below is on the topic of salvation and
the
> >> Biblical fact that salvation is by God's Grace through faith in Jesus
> >> Christ
> >> and NOT by works of man.
> >>
> > JERRY
> > Really?
>
> Really.
>
> What Carl is saying is true........
...................Funniest thing I heard all week !
>
> And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a
bed:
> and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of
> good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. Matt 9:2 (KJV)
>
> But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be
of
> good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made
whole
> from that hour. Matt 9:22 (KJV)
>
> Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto
you.
> 30 And their eyes were opened Matt 9:29-30 (KJV)
>
> Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be
it
> unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that
very
> hour Matt 15:28 (KJV)
>
> Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast
him
> out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I
say
> unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto
> this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and
> nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matt 17:19-20 (KJV)
>
> Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have
faith,
> and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree,
but
> also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou
cast
> into the sea; it shall be done.
> 22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye
shall
> receive. Matt 21:21-22 (KJV)
>
> And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee
Luke
> 18:42 (KJV)
>
> Now it would be a mistake to do one of either of two things here: a)
take
> these passages and conclude from them that faith is what's the operative
> cause of Jesus doing these healings and forgiving sins, or b) concluding
> from them that faith isn't necessary for these healings and forgiveness
of
> sin to be brought about by Jesus. Perhaps some more of the literally
> hundreds of biblical passages showing the nature of faith, and it's
> relation****p to works/actions will help bring out it's true nature, and
why
> Carl is correct to say faith is as necessary for salvation as is the
grace
> of God:
>
> But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be
> granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised
> from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith
in
> his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith
> which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of
you
> all. Acts 3:14-16 (KJV)
>
> Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in
the
> faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom
of
> God. Acts 14:22 (KJV)
>
> And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the
Holy
> Ghost, even as he did unto us;
> 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by
> faith. Acts 15:8-9 (KJV)
>
> Now we begin to see that faith is the means whereby men become pleasing
to
> God; whereby they "purify" their hearts before God; whereby they enter
into
> God's kingdom. To continue...
>
> Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward
God,
> and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:21 (KJV)
>
> Here is a mini-summary of the gospel of Jesus Christ! It consists not
in a
> list of works, but in repentance toward God from our dead works of
> unrighteousness, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Later, in the
> epistle of James, we find that these two necessary prongs of salvation
> invariably produce, in the person who really has these two, a life
filled
> with good works. So...
>
> What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and
have
> not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be ****d, and
> destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in
peace,
> be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things
which
> are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it
hath
> not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and
> I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee
my
> faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest
well:
> the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man,
> that faith without works is dead? James 2:14-20 (KJV)
>
> The crux of the issue here should not be confused or glossed over, but
> should be learned; that there is a group of states of affairs
(salvation,
> grace, faith, works) within which each of these states of affairs have a
> relation****p to one another. Without grace, there is no faith that can
> save, or works that can save. Without salvation being made possible,
there
> is no grace that can save, and no faith or works that can save. Without
> faith that produces works, there is no grace that can save. The
> relation****p here is that Jesus Christ came to make salvation by the
grace
> of God possible; that God's grace works to save through the agency of
faith,
> which is only real if it eventually produces good works. So James sums
> up...
>
> Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made
> perfect?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
> faith only. James 2:22-24 (KJV)
>
> James is driving home the point that it is easy to *say* you have faith,
but
> only *real* faith saves, and real faith produces good works; produces
"true
> religion".
>
> So while there is a necessary relation****p between faith and works, we
can't
> say works saves. Why? Because it is like saying that any necessary but
not
> sufficient cause of an effect is sufficient, and that's not the case.
It is
> necessary, for clouds to form, that there be water va**** in the
atmosphere,
> but it is not sufficient. There must be a certain *amount* of water
va****,
> and the atmosphere must be under a certain amount of pressure, and
within a
> certain range of temperature for clouds to form. Yet we cannot say that
> pressure and temperature make clouds form, because without water va****
we
> can have all the pressure and temperature anyone can imagine and no
clouds
> will form.
>
> We can pick example after example here, from nature, from interpersonal
> relation****ps, from logic; it will always be the same thing. If we are
not
> careful to understand the difference between a "necessary" cause and a
> "sufficient" cause, we will end up thinking the effect is the cause, or
> worse, the cause of itself!
>
> I'll end this by providing here what I believe are a number of further
> biblical passages that each demonstrate at least one element of this
several
> sided relation****p there is between the grace of God, saving faith, and
good
> works. Note, Jerry, that I'm not debating you here, but simply using
your
> desire to maliciously twist Scripture to bring out an im****tant truth
about
> the relation****p between grace, faith, and works for anyone who might
care
> to read it. So...
>
> For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God
> unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also
to
> the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from
faith to
> faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16-17
(KJV)
>
> Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all
and
> upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
> 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being
> justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ
> Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in
his
> blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are
past,
> through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his
> righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which
> believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what
law?
> of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a
man
> is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:22-28 (KJV)
>
> [Note: "deeds of the law", and similar terms, are references to what
Jerry
> is calling (and what the Bible often calls) "works". Similarily, "law
of
> works" is a reference to the Mosaic Law, which lists various duties and
> actions required, without much to say about motivation in doing them.]
>
> Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the cir***cision by faith, and
> uncir***cision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through
faith?
> God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:30-31 (KJV)
>
> What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the
flesh,
> hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to
> glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham
believed
> God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that
> worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him
that
> worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith
is
> counted for righteousness Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
>
> And he received the sign of cir***cision, a seal of the righteousness of
the
> faith which he had yet being uncir***cised: that he might be the father
of
> all them that believe, though they be not cir***cised; that
righteousness
> might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of cir***cision to
them
> who are not of the cir***cision only, but who also walk in the steps of
that
> faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncir***cised. 13
For
> the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to
Abraham, or
> to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14
For
> if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the
promise
> made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law
is,
> there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be
by
> grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that
> only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of
Abraham;
> who is the father of us all, Romans 4:11-16 (KJV)
>
> Paul sums up the case:
>
> Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord
> Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
wherein
> we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2 (KJV)
>
> Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the
> faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we
might
> be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:
for by
> the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16 (KJV)
>
> I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ
> liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the
faith
> of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not
> frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then
> Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2:20-21 (KJV)
>
> This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of
the
> law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in
the
> Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many
> things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to
you
> the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of
the
> law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:2-5 (KJV)
>
> [Here the careful reader will harken back to the many instances in the
> gospels where Jesus healed the sick despite the current understanding of
the
> Law. He healed on the Sabbath. He healed Gentiles, even the hated
Romans.
> He forgave sins on occasion without the sinner sacrificing in the
Temple.
> He worked by faith, not by law, and in so doing, *established* the Law,
as
> Paul argues in Romans so forcefully. John 8, the story of the woman
caught
> in adultry is a perfect example here, and in that story Jesus shows us
the
> righteous precedence in the elements of the Law, and illustrates for us
how
> that precedence can be twisted, so that the Law becomes unjust and
unloving;
> an *offence* to the God who gave it to men, while the men who have thus
> corrupted it continue to protest their "righteousness". To continue
with
> the miscellaneous passages on faith and works and the relation****p
between
> them...]
>
> Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for
righteousness.
> 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the
children
> of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the
> heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying,
In
> thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are
> blessed with faithful Abraham...But that no man is justified by the law
in
> the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12
And
> the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in
them.
> Gal 3:6-9; 11-12 (KJV)
>
> Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there
had
> been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness
should
> have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
> that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that
> believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up
unto
> the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:21-23 (KJV)
>
> [Now we begin to see Paul talking about the preservative aspects of
obeying
> the Law. What preserves cannot be what restores/saves. It can only
> maintain the status quo, and the status quo, so Paul says, is "the
scripture
> has concluded all under sin". We can find no instance in the gospels
where
> Jesus calls into question this Pauline observation concerning the Law.
In
> fact, in quoting from Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the other prophets, who
> themselves uttered prophetic speeches concluding all are sinners, wicked
of
> heart beyond knowing ( the same ones Paul occasionally relies upon in
his
> arguments!), Jesus may correctly be said to have validated those same
> prophetic utterances whether He ever quoted them directly or not. In
> quoting these OT prophets, Jesus shows us He accepts them as true
prophets,
> which validation then extends to ALL of their prophecies, not just the
ones
> Jesus quotes. Continuing...]
>
> But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the
faith
> which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our
> schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by
faith.
> 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26
> For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus Gal 3:23-26
> (KJV)
>
> For in Jesus Christ neither cir***cision availeth any thing, nor
> uncir***cision; but faith which worketh by love. Gal 5:6 (KJV)
>
> For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it
is
> the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9
(KJV)
>
> [The most famous, and straightforward biblical expression of the truth
it is
> through faith, and not the good works faith produces, that we are saved.
> The only problem with this passage is that it is *so* strong and curt,
many
> abuse it to say that works are not any part of being saved at all! I do
not
> believe Carl is of this opinion, nor do I believe his remarks are best
> understood in this way.]
>
> But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the
gift
> of Christ. Eph 4:7 (KJV)
>
> [This, perhaps, needs a little explaining. Here the phrase "the gift of
> Christ", refers to "faith", and harkens back to Paul's formula given
just a
> moment ago, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
> yourselves: it is the gift of God"Eph 2:8. Thus we see that the "gift
of
> Christ" is "faith", for to Paul Christ *is* God; God the Son, the risen
> Christ (Colossians 1:15, Philippians 2:10-11, Titus 2:13, etc.), and
things
> equal to the same thing are equal to each other. We therefore see the
above
> passage as saying, in effect, grace is given in measure to the faith
there
> is to receive it. If that is true, and salvation comes by the grace of
God,
> then it is receieved by faith, not works]
>
> There are about...oh, I don't know...about fifty or so more passages I
could
> re****t here, but that would only make for a post so long no one would
ever
> read it, and that's not why I've written this, so I won't go on. But in
> closing this out there is one more I'd like to provide:
>
> And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the
law,
> but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which
is of
> God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection,
and
> the fellow****p of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11
> If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Phil
> 3:9-11 (KJV)
>
> I don't see how anyone could read the above, let alone the above given
in
> the context of the entire Pauline corpus' teaching on the relation****p
that
> exists between salvation by grace, through faith, producing good works,
and
> not see this relation****p, and not understand that it is perfectly
correct
> to say that salvation comes *by* faith; not *by* works; not understand
that
> in saying that, no one is saying that good works have no part at all in
a
> man's salvation. They are the indicators to the rest of the world,
which
> cannot otherwise see his saving faith, that he has saving faith.
Stripes do
> not make a zebra, but all zebras have stripes. Wings do not make an
> airplane, but all airplanes have wings. Echo location does not make a
> rodent a bat, but all bats have echo location. Wheels do not make
> Chevrolets, but all Chevrolets have wheels. Walls do not make a house,
but
> all houses have walls. Teeth do not make a shark, but all sharks have
> teeth. Hopping doesn't make an animal a rabbit, but all rabbits hop.
Fur
> doesn't make a fur seal, but all fur seals have fur. Good works do not
save
> a person, but all saved persons manifest good works.
>
> I hope at the very least, anyone who reads this to this point now knows
that
> Jerry is simply blowing smoke in his twisting of Scripture to make it
appear
> as if the article Carl provided, which argued that salvation is by
faith,
> not works, and which I'm sure accurately reflects Carl's personal
belief, is
> contrary to sound biblical teaching. It's not. And Jerry is anything
but a
> knowledgable student of the Bible! He is instead a person who
consistently
> seeks to disparage the Christian faith in the Bible as the revealed word
of
> God, by twisting it as he's done here; by telling only so much of the
story
> as he can use for that purpose; by dealing in "half-truths" to create
whole
> falsehoods.
>
> Chuck Stamford
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