"rogue" <rogue719@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:f54629a4-7cb2-42f1-88d3-9abd7d02c6b2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Carl wrote:
>> Evangelist John Rice's sermon below is on the topic of salvation and
the
>> Biblical fact that salvation is by God's Grace through faith in Jesus
>> Christ
>> and NOT by works of man.
>>
> JERRY
> Really?
Really.
What Carl is saying is true:
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed:
and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of
good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. Matt 9:2 (KJV)
But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of
good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole
from that hour. Matt 9:22 (KJV)
Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto
you.
30 And their eyes were opened Matt 9:29-30 (KJV)
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it
unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that
very
hour Matt 15:28 (KJV)
Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast
him
out? 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I
say
unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto
this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and
nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matt 17:19-20 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have
faith,
and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree,
but
also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast
into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall
receive. Matt 21:21-22 (KJV)
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee Luke
18:42 (KJV)
Now it would be a mistake to do one of either of two things here: a) take
these passages and conclude from them that faith is what's the operative
cause of Jesus doing these healings and forgiving sins, or b) concluding
from them that faith isn't necessary for these healings and forgiveness of
sin to be brought about by Jesus. Perhaps some more of the literally
hundreds of biblical passages showing the nature of faith, and it's
relation****p to works/actions will help bring out it's true nature, and
why
Carl is correct to say faith is as necessary for salvation as is the grace
of God:
But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be
granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised
from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in
his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith
which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of
you
all. Acts 3:14-16 (KJV)
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in
the
faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of
God. Acts 14:22 (KJV)
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy
Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by
faith. Acts 15:8-9 (KJV)
Now we begin to see that faith is the means whereby men become pleasing to
God; whereby they "purify" their hearts before God; whereby they enter
into
God's kingdom. To continue...
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward
God,
and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:21 (KJV)
Here is a mini-summary of the gospel of Jesus Christ! It consists not in
a
list of works, but in repentance toward God from our dead works of
unrighteousness, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Later, in the
epistle of James, we find that these two necessary prongs of salvation
invariably produce, in the person who really has these two, a life filled
with good works. So...
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have
not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be ****d, and
destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things
which
are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath
not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and
I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my
faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest
well:
the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man,
that faith without works is dead? James 2:14-20 (KJV)
The crux of the issue here should not be confused or glossed over, but
should be learned; that there is a group of states of affairs (salvation,
grace, faith, works) within which each of these states of affairs have a
relation****p to one another. Without grace, there is no faith that can
save, or works that can save. Without salvation being made possible,
there
is no grace that can save, and no faith or works that can save. Without
faith that produces works, there is no grace that can save. The
relation****p here is that Jesus Christ came to make salvation by the grace
of God possible; that God's grace works to save through the agency of
faith,
which is only real if it eventually produces good works. So James sums
up...
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made
perfect?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only. James 2:22-24 (KJV)
James is driving home the point that it is easy to *say* you have faith,
but
only *real* faith saves, and real faith produces good works; produces
"true
religion".
So while there is a necessary relation****p between faith and works, we
can't
say works saves. Why? Because it is like saying that any necessary but
not
sufficient cause of an effect is sufficient, and that's not the case. It
is
necessary, for clouds to form, that there be water va**** in the
atmosphere,
but it is not sufficient. There must be a certain *amount* of water
va****,
and the atmosphere must be under a certain amount of pressure, and within
a
certain range of temperature for clouds to form. Yet we cannot say that
pressure and temperature make clouds form, because without water va**** we
can have all the pressure and temperature anyone can imagine and no clouds
will form.
We can pick example after example here, from nature, from interpersonal
relation****ps, from logic; it will always be the same thing. If we are
not
careful to understand the difference between a "necessary" cause and a
"sufficient" cause, we will end up thinking the effect is the cause, or
worse, the cause of itself!
I'll end this by providing here what I believe are a number of further
biblical passages that each demonstrate at least one element of this
several
sided relation****p there is between the grace of God, saving faith, and
good
works. Note, Jerry, that I'm not debating you here, but simply using your
desire to maliciously twist Scripture to bring out an im****tant truth
about
the relation****p between grace, faith, and works for anyone who might care
to read it. So...
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God
unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to
the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith
to
faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16-17
(KJV)
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all
and
upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being
justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ
Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in
his
blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are
past,
through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his
righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which
believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what
law?
of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a
man
is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:22-28 (KJV)
[Note: "deeds of the law", and similar terms, are references to what Jerry
is calling (and what the Bible often calls) "works". Similarily, "law of
works" is a reference to the Mosaic Law, which lists various duties and
actions required, without much to say about motivation in doing them.]
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the cir***cision by faith, and
uncir***cision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through
faith?
God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:30-31 (KJV)
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the
flesh,
hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to
glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham
believed
God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that
worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him
that
worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith
is
counted for righteousness Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
And he received the sign of cir***cision, a seal of the righteousness of
the
faith which he had yet being uncir***cised: that he might be the father of
all them that believe, though they be not cir***cised; that righteousness
might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of cir***cision to them
who are not of the cir***cision only, but who also walk in the steps of
that
faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncir***cised. 13 For
the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham,
or
to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14
For
if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise
made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law
is,
there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be
by
grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that
only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of
Abraham;
who is the father of us all, Romans 4:11-16 (KJV)
Paul sums up the case:
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord
Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
wherein
we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we
might
be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for
by
the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16 (KJV)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ
liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the
faith
of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not
frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then
Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2:20-21 (KJV)
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the
law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the
Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many
things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to
you
the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of
the
law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:2-5 (KJV)
[Here the careful reader will harken back to the many instances in the
gospels where Jesus healed the sick despite the current understanding of
the
Law. He healed on the Sabbath. He healed Gentiles, even the hated
Romans.
He forgave sins on occasion without the sinner sacrificing in the Temple.
He worked by faith, not by law, and in so doing, *established* the Law, as
Paul argues in Romans so forcefully. John 8, the story of the woman
caught
in adultry is a perfect example here, and in that story Jesus shows us the
righteous precedence in the elements of the Law, and illustrates for us
how
that precedence can be twisted, so that the Law becomes unjust and
unloving;
an *offence* to the God who gave it to men, while the men who have thus
corrupted it continue to protest their "righteousness". To continue with
the miscellaneous passages on faith and works and the relation****p between
them...]
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for
righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the
children
of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the
heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In
thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are
blessed with faithful Abraham...But that no man is justified by the law in
the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And
the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:6-9; 11-12 (KJV)
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had
been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should
have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that
believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up
unto
the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:21-23 (KJV)
[Now we begin to see Paul talking about the preservative aspects of
obeying
the Law. What preserves cannot be what restores/saves. It can only
maintain the status quo, and the status quo, so Paul says, is "the
scripture
has concluded all under sin". We can find no instance in the gospels
where
Jesus calls into question this Pauline observation concerning the Law. In
fact, in quoting from Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the other prophets, who
themselves uttered prophetic speeches concluding all are sinners, wicked
of
heart beyond knowing ( the same ones Paul occasionally relies upon in his
arguments!), Jesus may correctly be said to have validated those same
prophetic utterances whether He ever quoted them directly or not. In
quoting these OT prophets, Jesus shows us He accepts them as true
prophets,
which validation then extends to ALL of their prophecies, not just the
ones
Jesus quotes. Continuing...]
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith
which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our
schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus Gal 3:23-26
(KJV)
For in Jesus Christ neither cir***cision availeth any thing, nor
uncir***cision; but faith which worketh by love. Gal 5:6 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9
(KJV)
[The most famous, and straightforward biblical expression of the truth it
is
through faith, and not the good works faith produces, that we are saved.
The only problem with this passage is that it is *so* strong and curt,
many
abuse it to say that works are not any part of being saved at all! I do
not
believe Carl is of this opinion, nor do I believe his remarks are best
understood in this way.]
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the
gift
of Christ. Eph 4:7 (KJV)
[This, perhaps, needs a little explaining. Here the phrase "the gift of
Christ", refers to "faith", and harkens back to Paul's formula given just
a
moment ago, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God"Eph 2:8. Thus we see that the "gift of
Christ" is "faith", for to Paul Christ *is* God; God the Son, the risen
Christ (Colossians 1:15, Philippians 2:10-11, Titus 2:13, etc.), and
things
equal to the same thing are equal to each other. We therefore see the
above
passage as saying, in effect, grace is given in measure to the faith there
is to receive it. If that is true, and salvation comes by the grace of
God,
then it is receieved by faith, not works]
There are about...oh, I don't know...about fifty or so more passages I
could
re****t here, but that would only make for a post so long no one would ever
read it, and that's not why I've written this, so I won't go on. But in
closing this out there is one more I'd like to provide:
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the
law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is
of
God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection,
and
the fellow****p of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Phil
3:9-11 (KJV)
I don't see how anyone could read the above, let alone the above given in
the context of the entire Pauline corpus' teaching on the relation****p
that
exists between salvation by grace, through faith, producing good works,
and
not see this relation****p, and not understand that it is perfectly correct
to say that salvation comes *by* faith; not *by* works; not understand
that
in saying that, no one is saying that good works have no part at all in a
man's salvation. They are the indicators to the rest of the world, which
cannot otherwise see his saving faith, that he has saving faith. Stripes
do
not make a zebra, but all zebras have stripes. Wings do not make an
airplane, but all airplanes have wings. Echo location does not make a
rodent a bat, but all bats have echo location. Wheels do not make
Chevrolets, but all Chevrolets have wheels. Walls do not make a house,
but
all houses have walls. Teeth do not make a shark, but all sharks have
teeth. Hopping doesn't make an animal a rabbit, but all rabbits hop. Fur
doesn't make a fur seal, but all fur seals have fur. Good works do not
save
a person, but all saved persons manifest good works.
I hope at the very least, anyone who reads this to this point now knows
that
Jerry is simply blowing smoke in his twisting of Scripture to make it
appear
as if the article Carl provided, which argued that salvation is by faith,
not works, and which I'm sure accurately reflects Carl's personal belief,
is
contrary to sound biblical teaching. It's not. And Jerry is anything but
a
knowledgable student of the Bible! He is instead a person who
consistently
seeks to disparage the Christian faith in the Bible as the revealed word
of
God, by twisting it as he's done here; by telling only so much of the
story
as he can use for that purpose; by dealing in "half-truths" to create
whole
falsehoods.
Chuck Stamford
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