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a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's not true

by "Jeff Stueber" <jstueber@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Nov 23, 2007 at 08:33 AM

I recently finished a manuscript I entitled "Refuting Atheism" and have 
decided to share some pre-published information regarding atheism with the

general public.   Let me start with point-counterpoint regarding what is 
normally know as the "moral argument."  Richard Taylor, in a debate with 
William Lane Craig, relates a common hypothesis for the origin of the 
knowledge of moral obligations.





Is the basis for morality natural or supernatural? It is neither. The
basis 
for morality is conventional, which means the rules of morality were 
fabricated by human beings over many generations. These rules are: to 
abstain from injury, to abstain from lying, theft, assault, killing, and
so 
forth. These rules were not the invention of God. No one in this room 
imagines that if there were not a God to tell us these things, we would
not 
know any better. [i]



Certainly this idea has strong appeal, but is horribly wrong when it comes

to how we ruminate on moral obligations and use them to create our laws. 
Normally we discover, by .. What we are to do and then craft our laws to
fit 
those innate obligations.  Take, for instance, the debate over abortion. 
The pro-choice and pro-life do not agree among themselves what is correct 
and then craft laws to reflect that.  They instead grapple with their own 
innate knowledge of the moral law and then attempt to craft laws that
agree 
with what is morally correct. Of course both sides disagree, but that is 
more a reflection of our inability to properly understand the moral law
and 
the fact our moral intuition can sometimes be damaged by our own personal 
biases (the desire for ***ual activity devoid of consequences, for 
instance).  Humanist evolutionist arguments for the non-existence of 
knowledge of the "moral law" proves faulty on every turn.

   This evolutionist argument is so poor that humanists themselves cannot 
remain consistent on this issue.  Take, for instance, Paul Kurtz who 
suggests out loud, in Forbidden Fruit,  that it was immoral for Abraham to

kill Isaac and immoral for God to demand Abraham kill him.  Clearly if
Kurtz 
had taken his own evolutionist advice, he would have suggested that the 
immorality or morality of killing one's son would have depended on the 
culture one was in at the time.  Clearly we believe killing one's child is

immoral, but that is our culture and someone else may differ in beliefs
from 
us.  Who are we to suppose, just because we think so, that others, even
God, 
are immoral for thinking different?

  I surveyed the arguments for the existence or non-existence of the
"soul" 
next and suggested there are philosophical and medical evidences for such
an 
entities existence and near-death experiences confirm such an existence. 
Then, later in discussing the reasonableness of believing in Jesus' 
resurrection, I tie these evidences together.



 " There is one last salient point I want to add to this debate which
links 
the sayings, life, and resurrection of Jesus with the tales of near-death 
experiences previously cited.  When Jesus communes with the father in an 
occurrence often seen as a fulfillment of his promise that he could come
in 
power and majesty, he is seen as a being of light.  Amazingly, this is 
exactly how Jesus and other spiritual beings are seen in near-death 
experiences; they are creatures that seemingly are made of nothing but 
light.  Jesus, in His resurrected body, is able to enter a room and leave 
the room, disappearing almost magically, merely by desiring to do so. 
Compare this with the experience of Thetus Tenney, and others whose 
spiritual movement transcends spatial dimensions.  There is no way for
these 
disciples to have known what information would come out of near-death 
experiences.  Yet, for all the primitiveness of the environment in which 
these Jews lived, at least compared to modern ideas, they got the
spiritual 
nature of humans exactly right!"



I then relate this to the moral argument because people who have NDEs
often 
relate a "judgment" occurring of them either from some divine or
semi-divine 
being or themselves. This suggests a sort of moral law that is not merely 
dependent on our culture's whims but one that transcends cultures - in 
essence, an absolutist one.



I junction into an argument on the bias inherent in evolutionist
philosophy 
and quote from Richard Dawkins from a debate between him and Francis 
Collins, and later quote from Robert Jastrow who expresses his
naturalistic 
sentiments in the video The Privileged Planet.



[Dawkins] What I am skeptical about is the idea that whatever wonderful 
revelation does come in the science of the future, it will turn out to be 
one of the particular historical religions that people happen to have 
dreamed up.  When we [he and Collins] started out and we were talking
about 
the origins of the universe and the physical constants, I provided what I 
thought were cogent arguments against a supernatural intelligent designer.

But it does seem to me to be worthy idea.  Refutable - but nevertheless 
grand and big enough to be worthy of respect.  I don't see the Olympian
gods 
or Jesus coming down and dying on the Cross as worthy of that grandeur. 
They strike me as parochial.  If there is a God, it's going to be a whole 
lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any 
theologian of any religion has ever proposed.



[Jastrow]   Just as I can't believe there was a creator, I can't believe 
this all happened by chance which implies there was a creator.  You see,
I'm 
at a completely hopeless bind and I stay there.  Again, I find it hard to 
believe that this is all a matter of atoms and molecules and so I try to
fit 
into my concept of the world the conclusion that there is a larger force
of 
some kind which we can call "god" or you can call it whatever.  But I
can't 
accept that.  I'm what's called a materialist in philosophy.  It means
that 
I believe the world consists entirely of material substances . . . that's 
what my science tells me.



What I do conclude from the discussion of bias is that if you wanted to 
craft a theory of how people would act if the Biblical creationist theory 
about man's rebellion against god were true, you would find no better 
examples of the theory being true then Dawkins and others.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[i]  http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-taylor1.html
 




 24 Posts in Topic:
a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it's
"Jeff Stueber"   2007-11-23 08:33:32 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Christopher A.Lee <cal  2007-11-23 09:42:24 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
"Mark K. Bilbo"  2007-11-23 09:03:55 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found
TT <tt@[EMAIL PROTECTE  2007-11-23 10:13:29 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
"Rev. Karl E. Taylor  2007-11-23 08:37:40 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
scottrichter422@[EMAIL PR  2007-11-23 07:52:05 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe  2007-11-23 10:52:34 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Michael Gray <mikegray  2007-11-24 10:17:52 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
John Baker <nunya@[EMA  2007-11-23 11:57:27 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Uncle Vic <address@[EM  2007-11-23 16:57:23 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
"L. Raymond" &l  2007-11-23 12:53:51 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
satyr <RsEaMtOyVrE@[EM  2007-11-23 12:59:06 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it
"þus cwæð" <  2007-11-23 19:09:15 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it
Dubh Ghall <puck@[EMAI  2007-11-23 20:11:58 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
"Robibnikoff" &  2007-11-23 15:42:59 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Free Lunch <lunch@[EMA  2007-11-23 14:47:41 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Dubh Ghall <puck@[EMAI  2007-11-23 23:32:59 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Michael Gray <mikegray  2007-11-24 10:16:37 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Doc Smartass <gekido@[  2007-11-23 23:47:22 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it
Michael Gray <mikegray  2007-11-24 10:21:39 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found it
Dubh Ghall <puck@[EMAI  2007-11-24 00:19:31 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Liz <ehuth1@[EMAIL PRO  2007-11-23 19:35:44 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
Josef Balluch <josef.b  2007-11-24 05:03:14 
Re: a funny thing happened while researching atheism: I found i
MarkA <nobody@[EMAIL P  2007-11-24 11:59:18 

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